Valparaiso Politics....HOGS

[GodFearinGunTotin]

What about noise polution? What about cars on blocks making the neighborhood look ****ty and bringing your property value down? What about not mowing your lawn such that grass gets high, and rodents get numerous, and the neighborhood looks ****ty, and property values fall? What about lawn chemicals that run down hill onto your property? What about people who don't kill off the dandelions and that **** spreads into your lawn. What if your neighbor goes to work at 4am and revs his very loud truck several times before he leaves? Is it harm if it bothers some people and not others?

My point is, "property rights" can be grey in terms of whether they think there is harm or not. Not black and white. Neighbors can be great and horrible. Where do you draw the line between great and horrible? Acceptable and unacceptable? Actionable and not actionable? Different people draw that line in different places. Libertarian's NAP seems pretty good at solving the clear-cut black-n-white issues. Not so great with the grey areas, when "harm" is less objective. There isn't a magical formula that gives the just answer in every situation. And you may not get what you think is just.

Seems to me, in cases like these, even the most ardent libertarian can support him some big government telling other people what they have to do and what they can't do on their property.

 

[jamil]

Yeah I realize that but since all I have talked to is other people they all say NO WAY to hogs. But they might have the impression I have that it is going to smell terrible and destroy the water table. These might be inaccurate assessments and who knows maybe this guy has all this in mind in the building aspect and will prevent it. Or maybe all the anti CAFO stuff is hippy hating hog farmers that have there own agenda. But that side is all I see online. I don't see anything showing how clean and well maintained these places are.

But JD is the key here he has a bro in law that owns one of these and he can shed some light on the whole thing. He says he will drive past a bunch tomorrow and is going to his bro in laws CAFO so we have insight right here on INGO. (this is not supposed to be purple) (sounds that way) I want to know the truth I live near this place and if it is no issue I would like to be first in line to tell the guy good luck. On the other hand if it is going to be bad I will be there at the meeting to show my disapproval.

I don't think that sounds like purple at all. One piece of advice. You *may* get the truth from someone whose livelihood depends on the subject. Just like if you consulted with people who are ideologically opposed to it, you *may* get the truth from them. I'm not saying either side would lie to you. I'm saying people tend to believe the best things about what supports their livelihood, while not noticing the worst.

Also, I wouldn't say that mom's links are absolutely unbiased, but they are likely to contain mostly facts. It's probably best to get all the information from all sources and distill it yourself into a conclusion, factoring in the natural biases.

As far as harm black and white you are right. But if it is going to be harmful it is better to prevent it then wait till it negatively affects my livelihood. But I don't know that for sure either way.

If one of the core libertarians get wind of this there will be hell to pay and this thread's potential post count just went way up. I'm surprised that they haven't weighed in yet. Maybe they don't like bacon?

Seems to me, in cases like these, even the most ardent libertarian can support him some big government telling other people what they have to do and what they can't do on their property.

It seems most INGO libertarians tend to be minarchists, which is where I can agree with them most, though one or two seem to be maxarchists, at least for their pet causes. One or two are just down right anarchist. But wherever they are along the spectrum, it's hard to predict what they really feel when **** gets real all up in here. And **** probably can't get much more real than a pig farm literally in your back yard.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

If one of the core libertarians get wind of this there will be hell to pay and this thread's potential post count just went way up. I'm surprised that they haven't weighed in yet. Maybe they don't like bacon?

The careful observer will note that, in situations such as this, when philosophy meets real world, the participation seems to be scant.

 

[poisonspyder]

My neighbor burns wood and it's bad for me. No more wood heat I say. I'd rather he burn propane spend more and hurt the environment more so I can be happy. Screw the other guy by the drill rig or hog farm. In Denver it is now illegal to burn wood on certain days and you can not install a none epa certified wood burner after 1989. I like hogs and trees and I'd hug both till I'm cold, need a shelter or hungry.

 

[D-Ric902]

My neighbor is ugly

can I sue?

 

[jamil]

My neighbor is ugly

can I sue?

IANAL nut if it's Rhino doing Tai chi nekkid in is back yard I'd say you may have a strong case.

 

[mom45]

Proposed Hog Farm South of Valpo Scrapped | Indiana 105 | THE Country Station from Chicago to South Bend | Northwest Indiana

 

[HoughMade]

Proposed Hog Farm South of Valpo Scrapped | Indiana 105 | THE Country Station from Chicago to South Bend | Northwest Indiana

The Times reports the Sands family announced its decision today and cited their disappointment in the way activist groups from outside of the community, “took advantage of a constructive county-level dialogue in an effort to promote anti-agriculture agendas.”

This is exactly what was going on. The emotional manipulation and ridicule would make Saul Alinsky proud.

Hands raise- who here lives in Morgan Township, Porter County?

My hand is raised. Also guess who was NOT against the hog farm.

It's sad how easily influenced some people are.

 

[jamil]

This is exactly what was going on. The emotional manipulation and ridicule would make Saul Alinsky proud.

Hands raise- who here lives in Morgan Township, Porter County?

My hand is raised. Also guess who was NOT against the hog farm.

It's sad how easily influenced some people are.

Who here doesn't live in Morgan Township or Porter County and doesn't care if there's a hog farm there or not?

My hand is raised. That's up to y'all to figure out. I'm just here fer conversatin' purposes and ta see what them libertarians think about it.

 

[rambone]

No surprise here. If people like controlling their neighbors' grass length, there is no doubt they will resist 7,000 hogs moving in next door. Pandora's box was opened a long way back. You don't really own your property; you just rent it from the government and grovel for permission to do stuff.

 

[HoughMade]

"7,000 hogs" was part of the propaganda. Though it may not make much difference to some, it was 5,600 at most....and there really aren't much in the way of neighbors out there. Not close ones, at least.

 

[rambone]

Point taken, but you hopefully see what I'm saying. Property "owners" have to ask permission to build a shed or remodel a bedroom. The hog farm didn't stand a chance unless it greased the right palms. Cronyism is the easiest path to success in this kind of environment.

 

[KLB]

That is too bad.

I was amazed at the signs people had out against this. They ranged far from the actual area where the CAFO would have been located, and the content was about as factual as anti-gun propaganda.

 

[HoughMade]

That is too bad.

I was amazed at the signs people had out against this. They ranged far from the actual area where the CAFO would have been located, and the content was about as factual as anti-gun propaganda.

When I saw the "Protect you family" sign, my disdain turned from "somewhat" to "intense".

 

[KLB]

When I saw the "Protect you family" sign, my disdain turned from "somewhat" to "intense".

No kidding. That was one of the worst. I think I actually saw one about protecting children too.

I even saw a farm house with signs up. That one was a shocker. I wonder if some of the larger pig farms in the area were part of those spearheading the protest.

 

[jd4320t]

Too bad it turned out this way. I was hoping to see the farmer triumph. I have a friend building one right now and he went through similar Bs. Pure bull **** is exactly what it is.

I have a 14 year old daughter who's already wanting to have hog and turkey operations when she's older but those dreams may not be able to happen because of ignorant people like this.

I can't wait til this weekend where I'll be at the farm with CAFO's in every direction and surrounded by some of the best people in the country.

 

[Dosproduction]

So in case people don't understand property rights im going to try and explain it again. You can do what ever you like on YOUR property. As long as it does not affect MY property. The moment it affects MY property then you have just took away my property rights. I have a right to defend MY property from future attacks. I have not found one article saying CAFOs do not harm the local water and air. There is research that points out asthma increases in children in areas near CAFOs. If they build a hog factory and it does not affect MY property im all for it. If they build a hog factory and it DOES affect my property then they have just violated my rights to property and im against it. Since everything I read is negative regarding CAFOs I am in my right to defend my land. This is how property rights work. Just like the right to life. Someone does not have to shoot you first for you to defend your life. If they point a gun at you, you can shoot them before you get shot. This is your right to life.

Anyone on here think property rights work differently? Plz explain. And I live in the immediate area and there are signs all over already for this.

 

[Dosproduction]

jd you said you where going this weekend take any pics?? Plz share your inside knowledge with INGO we want to know the truth.

 

[D-Ric902]

jd you said you where going this weekend take any pics?? Plz share your inside knowledge with INGO we want to know the truth.

Moot point now

 

[wagyu52]

So in case people don't understand property rights im going to try and explain it again. You can do what ever you like on YOUR property. As long as it does not affect MY property. The moment it affects MY property then you have just took away my property rights. I have a right to defend MY property from future attacks. I have not found one article saying CAFOs do not harm the local water and air. There is research that points out asthma increases in children in areas near CAFOs. If they build a hog factory and it does not affect MY property im all for it. If they build a hog factory and it DOES affect my property then they have just violated my rights to property and im against it. Since everything I read is negative regarding CAFOs I am in my right to defend my land. This is how property rights work. Just like the right to life. Someone does not have to shoot you first for you to defend your life. If they point a gun at you, you can shoot them before you get shot. This is your right to life.

Anyone on here think property rights work differently? Plz explain. And I live in the immediate area and there are signs all over already for this.

But you moved into an agricultural area or at least near one, the farm was there long before your house. You are the one trying to change the intended use of your neighbors property.
Livestock are part of agriculture you do understand that righ? The farm was there when you moved/ built right? He should have every right to utilize his agricultural land for agriculture, if that includes livestock it's his right. Because you didn't understand the posability of what could legally happen in an agricultural area is not his fault or responsibility. It's too bad that so many people are ignorant of what happens in the country. You can take all that CAFO propaganda out of the picture, doesn't matter.