Valparaiso Politics....HOGS

[jamil]

Why as a gun owner should I be ashamed exactly?

I don't get it. No purple implied this time. It seems to be getting more personal than a subject like this aught to get. People have different beliefs and interests. And sometimes we behave like someone's pissing in our grits.

 

[jd4320t]

Either way I would like to see how it works. When you google this thing it is all negative and the pics are disturbing. By being able to go to a place and see the "truth" I can either defend the guy or justifiably defend my self. If there is no negative I will go to the meeting defending the owner. If there is a large negative impact on my land I will go the other route.

That's all you see because of people like you and all the others rallying on Facebook. You people paint a picture of manure everywhere and all these bad things when the reality is it isn't like that at all.

Why as a gun owner should I be ashamed exactly?

You should be ashamed because everyday people are working hard to take your guns away or make it so you can't shoot on your property yet here you are trying to take rights away from someone else.

 

[Dosproduction]

Yeah my priority's are to ensure a safe environment for my children to grow up in. That is why im pro gun. And why I might be Anti CAFO.

 

[Dosproduction]

JD I got a idea. You are going there tomorrow take a bunch of pics of the operation and send them to me. I really would like to know the truth as I have said many times. Also I don't facebook. When people try to take my guns they are trying to violate my rights. When people are trying to destroy my water supply and land they are trying to violate my rights. If CAFOs do not do this then I have nothing against them.

 

[jd4320t]

JD I got a idea. You are going there tomorrow take a bunch of pics of the operation and send them to me. I really would like to know the truth as I have said many times. Also I don't facebook. When people try to take my guns they are trying to violate my rights. When people are trying to destroy my water supply and land they are trying to violate my rights. If CAFOs do not do this then I have nothing against them.

No thanks. You are on the internet now and you can do this for yourself. I believe this family is doing what they need to do and will get their go ahead.

 

[Dosproduction]

A guy builds a CAFO that threatens my safety (health hazard), I defend my self by stopping him, I protected my right to Property.
A guy points a gun that threatens my safety (health hazard), I defend my self by stopping him, I protected my right to Life.

No where in there am I violating his rights in either situation. If the CAFO is not a environmental hazard then I am in the wrong. And I would really like to find out it is not a hazard cause it would be a lot of stress off my back.

 

[Dosproduction]

JD all I see online is negative can you give me some sights that say how they are not hazards. I am not trying to be sarcastic I want to learn the truth. U say they are not bad please show me.

 

[jd4320t]

Go open your fridge. Many of those products come from large operations. They sell them everyday. There's your proof they aren't bad.

Do you now watch or read the news? Surely you know that only bad news sells. It's the same with CAFO's. The only time most people hear about them is when this happens. I can literally drive by hundreds of them in my home county and the only time you ever smell a thing is when the manure is being spread, sprayed or knifed into the ground.

 

[jamil]

If they build something that they know will destroy the ground water and pollute the air that is a act of aggression. On the other hand if it has no negative impact on me or my land that im all for them. I can defend my self before letting someone injure me.

What about noise polution? What about cars on blocks making the neighborhood look ****ty and bringing your property value down? What about not mowing your lawn such that grass gets high, and rodents get numerous, and the neighborhood looks ****ty, and property values fall? What about lawn chemicals that run down hill onto your property? What about people who don't kill off the dandelions and that **** spreads into your lawn. What if your neighbor goes to work at 4am and revs his very loud truck several times before he leaves? Is it harm if it bothers some people and not others?

My point is, "property rights" can be grey in terms of whether they think there is harm or not. Not black and white. Neighbors can be great and horrible. Where do you draw the line between great and horrible? Acceptable and unacceptable? Actionable and not actionable? Different people draw that line in different places. Libertarian's NAP seems pretty good at solving the clear-cut black-n-white issues. Not so great with the grey areas, when "harm" is less objective. There isn't a magical formula that gives the just answer in every situation. And you may not get what you think is just.

 

[Dosproduction]

Here is the magical formula when there is HARM to my property physically that is the black and white. If my water goes from drinkable to poison because of someone actions then that is the black and white. If there is a known issue with contamination then that is a issue. And noise pollution is also wrong. Anything that is physical negative is wrong. If it is subjective like property value then that is life, of course I don't want that either. But this is why we have a judge because there can be damages that are not able to be measured and they are called punitive. So like people using lawn chems and that running on my land in a measurable amount I can and should sue and they can and should stop harming my land.

If you know you are going to harm someone with your actions then it is justified to stop them before they do the harm. Not 100% sure these CAFOs are harmfull yet though

 

[Dosproduction]

Go open your fridge. Many of those products come from large operations. They sell them everyday. There's your proof they aren't bad.

Do you now watch or read the news? Surely you know that only bad news sells. It's the same with CAFO's. The only time most people hear about them is when this happens. I can literally drive by hundreds of them in my home county and the only time you ever smell a thing is when the manure is being spread, sprayed or knifed into the ground.

Just cause I have food in my fridge does not mean that the CAFOs are not harmful to the local environment. And this is why I wanted to stop and talk to the farmer so I can get the perspective from his side. I literally told my wife you don't know till you hear both sides we should stop and ask them. She said NO WAY might seem like a attack on them to knock on there door about it.

 

[wagyu52]

Wow... Got a friend and neighbor trying to put up a quad 4 (40,000 head) finisher and can't beleve the rules and regulations he has to go through to put it in the middle of nowhere. I can't beleve this would go through if it's that close to a residential area or that IDEM approving a manure plan for 7000 head on 40 AC. Somthing doesn't make sense with this, I would sure like to see more information.

 

[jamil]

Just cause I have food in my fridge does not mean that the CAFOs are not harmful to the local environment. And this is why I wanted to stop and talk to the farmer so I can get the perspective from his side. I literally told my wife you don't know till you hear both sides we should stop and ask them. She said NO WAY might seem like a attack on them to knock on there door about it.

I don't think it would hurt, unless they're really, REALLY thin skinned. Some folks are, especially when it comes to their livelihoods. Speaking of which, you're gonna get the opinion of someone whose livelihood depends to some extent on neighbors' perceptions.

 

[jamil]

Here is the magical formula when there is HARM to my property physically that is the black and white. If my water goes from drinkable to poison because of someone actions then that is the black and white. If there is a known issue with contamination then that is a issue. And noise pollution is also wrong. Anything that is physical negative is wrong. If it is subjective like property value then that is life, of course I don't want that either. But this is why we have a judge because there can be damages that are not able to be measured and they are called punitive. So like people using lawn chems and that running on my land in a measurable amount I can and should sue and they can and should stop harming my land.

If you know you are going to harm someone with your actions then it is justified to stop them before they do the harm. Not 100% sure these CAFOs are harmfull yet though

The harm may be black and white and maybe not. And you wouldn't know until after they're producing. You seem to be opposing the operation. How long would you know before it caused harm, if it even caused any at all?

 

[Dosproduction]

Yeah I realize that but since all I have talked to is other people they all say NO WAY to hogs. But they might have the impression I have that it is going to smell terrible and destroy the water table. These might be inaccurate assessments and who knows maybe this guy has all this in mind in the building aspect and will prevent it. Or maybe all the anti CAFO stuff is hippy hating hog farmers that have there own agenda. But that side is all I see online. I don't see anything showing how clean and well maintained these places are.

But JD is the key here he has a bro in law that owns one of these and he can shed some light on the whole thing. He says he will drive past a bunch tomorrow and is going to his bro in laws CAFO so we have insight right here on INGO. (this is not supposed to be purple) (sounds that way) I want to know the truth I live near this place and if it is no issue I would like to be first in line to tell the guy good luck. On the other hand if it is going to be bad I will be there at the meeting to show my disapproval.

 

[Dosproduction]

As far as harm black and white you are right. But if it is going to be harmful it is better to prevent it then wait till it negatively affects my livelihood. But I don't know that for sure either way.

 

[1DOWN4UP]

The area South of US30 is about all that is left,for the most part of large treks of land for future development.I can't see that they would be that short sited .I can't see how it will ever go thru. I can see both sides of this coin,and both sides make valid points. Again,if it does go thru....it will be closer to Boone Grove or Kouts.to boom.. Got a friend and neighbor trying to put up a quad 4 (40,000 head) finisher and can't beleve the rules and regulations he has to go through to put it in the middle of nowhere. I can't beleve this would go through if it's that close to a residential area or that IDEM approving a manure plan for 7000 head on 40 AC. Somthing doesn't make sense with this, I would sure like to see more information.

 

[1DOWN4UP]

Wagyu52....I am sorry for mixing your quote with mine..........I tried to highlight it

 

[wagyu52]

Read the CT article in this thread and looked it up on google earth, yeah.... I wouldn't fight this if I was a neighbor, if this farmer wants hogs bad enough he's gonna get them 2499 head is just as stinky as 5900 and no IDEM rules,it could get worse.

 

[mom45]

This might answer some of your questions? I guess you could contact IDEM to see if they can address any of your concerns as well.

IDEM: Confined Feeding Operations (CFOs)