To carry without the LTCH

[JBusch8899]

IANAL

A person without a LTCH, carrying their firearm at their fixed place of business, or their home, would be required to secure their handgun enroute as required under the applicable statute. There is nothing within the language of the statute that limits, or otherwise states the quantity of a person has the ability to do so.

There is also nothing within the language of the statute which requires a place of repair to be a place of business.

Is there an applicable judicial opinion upon the subject that I am not aware?

 

[AFA1CY]

OK, here is another little twist.

IANAL etc. etc.....

Say I own two homes (one in the city and one on the lake). I could transport a handgun between the two homes I own if indeed I spent time dwelling in each of them.

Or, I own two places of business (Rich's Peanut Butter & Jelly resturants). I spend Monday, Wednesday, and Friday at resturant A, and Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday at resturant B. I could transport a handgun between businesses.

 

[hoosiertriangle]

I don't think there is anything immoral or un-ethical in telling somebody to break the law to be a test case so long as the person considering breaking the law knows the full consequences of their action. This would include all the penalties associated with breaking the law and/or the strong possibility your test case will fail leaving you with a record.

In many instances, a party can only gain standing to challenge a law by breaking that law. Without breaking the law, they have no "injury" or concrete facts for the court to examine and make a ruling on. This is a tried and true, and well recognized method for gaining standing.

The key is that the person considering breaking the law should choose to having full disclosure of the consequences. Sometimes a political challenge is not possible, and a judicial challenge is all that remains.

It is disheartening to see opinions expressed by people who seem to think they do not have to obey a law with which they disagree. Intentionally breaking the law doesn't make you a "test case". It makes you a criminal!

 

[sj kahr k40]

just call the cops on him and let him be the test case, if he believes he is right he shouldn't have a problem with the cops stopping him

 

[JBusch8899]

It is disheartening to see opinions expressed by people who seem to think they do not have to obey a law with which they disagree. Intentionally breaking the law doesn't make you a "test case". It makes you a criminal!

I don't think there is anything immoral or un-ethical in telling somebody to break the law to be a test case so long as the person considering breaking the law knows the full consequences of their action. This would include all the penalties associated with breaking the law and/or the strong possibility your test case will fail leaving you with a record.

In many instances, a party can only gain standing to challenge a law by breaking that law. Without breaking the law, they have no "injury" or concrete facts for the court to examine and make a ruling on. This is a tried and true, and well recognized method for gaining standing.

The key is that the person considering breaking the law should choose to having full disclosure of the consequences. Sometimes a political challenge is not possible, and a judicial challenge is all that remains.

[FONT=georgia, bookman old style, palatino linotype, book antiqua, palatino, trebuchet ms, helvetica, garamond, sans-serif, arial, verdana, avante garde, century gothic, comic sans ms, times, times new roman, serif]Dare to do things worthy of imprisonment if you mean to be of consequence. ~Juvenal

Laws control the lesser man. Right conduct controls the greater one. ~Chinese Proverb

Never do anything against conscience even if the state demands it. ~Albert Einstein

No radical change on the plane of history is possible without crime. ~Hermann Keyserling

When leaders act contrary to conscience, we must act contrary to leaders. ~Veterans Fast for Life

It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong. ~Voltaire

If... the machine of government... is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then, I say, break the law. ~Henry David Thoreau, On the Duty of Civil Disobediance, 1849

You're not supposed to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who says it. ~Malcolm X

Human history begins with man's act of disobedience which is at the very same time the beginning of his freedom and development of his reason. ~Erich Fromm, Psychoanalysis and Religion

Each man must for himself alone decide what is right and what is wrong, which course is patriotic and which isn't. You cannot shirk this and be a man. To decide against your conviction is to be an unqualified and excusable traitor, both to yourself and to your country, let men label you as they may. ~Mark Twain

Integrity has no need of rules. ~Albert Camus

If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable. ~Louis D. Brandeis

Laws are only words written on paper, words that change on society's whim and are interpreted differently daily by politicians, lawyers, judges, and policemen. Anyone who believes that all laws should always be obeyed would have made a fine slave catcher. Anyone who believes that all laws are applied equally, despite race, religion, or economic status, is a fool. ~John J. Miller, And Hope to Die

Disobedience, the rarest and most courageous of the virtues, is seldom distinguished from neglect, the laziest and commonest of the vices. ~George Bernard Shaw, Maxims for Revolutionists

Every actual state is corrupt. Good men must not obey laws too well. ~Ralph Waldo Emerson

We should never forget that everything Adolf Hitler did in Germany was "legal" and everything the Hungarian freedom fighters did in Hungary was "illegal." ~Martin Luther King, Jr., "Letter from Birmingham Jail," Why We Can't Wait, 1963

We cannot, by total reliance on law, escape the duty to judge right and wrong.... There are good laws and there are occasionally bad laws, and it conforms to the highest traditions of a free society to offer resistance to bad laws, and to disobey them. ~Alexander Bickel

It is necessary to distinguish between the virtue and the vice of obedience. ~Lemuel K. Washburn, Is The Bible Worth Reading And Other Essays, 1911

I think that we should be men first, and subjects afterward. It is not so desirable to cultivate a respect for the law, so much as for the right. ~Henry David Thoreau, Civil Disobedience, 1849

As long as the world shall last there will be wrongs, and if no man objected and no man rebelled, those wrongs would last forever. ~Clarence Darrow

It is not what a lawyer tells me I may do; but what humanity, reason, and justice tell me I ought to do. ~Edmund Burke, Second Speech on Conciliation, 1775
I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. ~Robert A. Heinlein, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress

Ordinarily, a person leaving a courtroom with a conviction behind him would wear a somber face. But I left with a smile. I knew that I was a convicted criminal, but I was proud of my crime. ~Martin Luther King, Jr., March 22, 1956

If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality. ~Bishop Desmond Tutu

It is not a man's duty, as a matter of course, to devote himself to the eradication of any, even the most enormous wrong; he may still properly have other concerns to engage him; but it is his duty, at least, to wash his hands of it, and, if he gives it no thought longer, not to give it practically his support. If I devote myself to other pursuits and contemplations, I must first see, at least, that I do not pursue them sitting upon another man's shoulders. ~Henry David Thoreau, On the Duty of Civil Disobedience[/FONT]

 

[Joe Williams]

It is very possible to carry a gun without a license. If you regard the license as an un-Constitutional requirement so onerous that you refuse to comply, simply sling your shotgun or rifle and head out on the town. Or become a test case. While I personally think the requirement for a LTCH is, in fact, un-Constitutional, I do not think it's beatable in court, but good luck to you! It may be possible to sue and win on the basis that the state isn't obeying it's own laws re: the time lines to meet it's shall issue requirements, and perhaps possible to win a case challenging the poll tax requirements currently imposed, but I don't think a court will completely strike down the ability of the state to require the LTCH.

Anyone who read what I wrote, especially the part I just bolded, and then really, truly thinks I was advocating becoming a test case is just a tad silly in the head, IMHO. While becoming a test case is certainly a valid, and sometimes the only, tactic for destroying bad law, it should only be used if there's a good chance of winning. There is a not very fine line between being a test case, and being a martyr.

 

[Delmar]

I think the Indiana law is really a bad one so I advise anyone who wants to own a handgun in Indiana to get a LTCH.

 

[Thumper]

I guess i'm the only one who likes the LTCH law just the way it is.

 

[Vince49]

Yup!

I guess i'm the only one who likes the LTCH law just the way it is.

That would be my guess !

 

[sj kahr k40]

I guess i'm the only one who likes the LTCH law just the way it is.

I don't have a problem with the LTCH law either, I would like to see unrestricted carry but that's just not realistic IMO.

 

[rmabrey]

Needing a License to take your gun to the range is ridiculous IMO. You have a right to protect your home and family, but should you choose to not get an LTCH/Hunting and range license then you better hope your naturally a good shot at 4 am in the dfark when your half asleep

 

[JBusch8899]

Needing a License to take your gun to the range is ridiculous IMO. You have a right to protect your home and family, but should you choose to not get an LTCH/Hunting and range license then you better hope your naturally a good shot at 4 am in the dfark when your half asleep

The alternative is taking your handgun to a gun shop with a range.

Don's and Pop's:

When will LE Firearms have their range open?

 

[tv1217]

If he tries to go to the range without the pink card, he's doomed.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

It happened to a friend of my Fathers. It happened years ago, but he went to Atterbury. He did not have a LTCH, and got approached by a CO. He was lucky and got his gun back. I whole heartedly agree that an LTCH is unconstitutional. Some people just want a gun for home defense. Some do not even know the laws, or what an LTCH even is. Every handgun purchased should come with a pamphlet. Explaining the laws, and what a LTCH is and how to apply for one. It's just a way for the Government to keep tabs, and make money. Since they take our money, I think it's their responsibility just not the gun owners. To make sure citizens are aware of the laws, and know what a LTCH is and how to apply for one.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Get . . . the . . . license.

 

[Bill of Rights]

It happened to a friend of my Fathers. It happened years ago, but he went to Atterbury. He did not have a LTCH, and got approached by a CO. He was lucky and got his gun back. I whole heartedly agree that an LTCH is unconstitutional. Some people just want a gun for home defense. Some do not even know the laws, or what an LTCH even is. Every handgun purchased should come with a pamphlet. Explaining the laws, and what a LTCH is and how to apply for one. It's just a way for the Government to keep tabs, and make money. Since they take our money, I think it's their responsibility just not the gun owners. To make sure citizens are aware of the laws, and know what a LTCH is and how to apply for one.

Get . . . the . . . license.

U.S. Patriot makes a good point, Kirk... Not everyone even knows what it is, what prohibitions it removes, or where it is meaningless, let alone such things as how to make application, what is required, or the cost.

I agree, get the license, I have my Lifetime and I advise others to do the same if they can, the 4 yr if they cannot. It's always easier to fight a battle from within than from without.

The person referenced in the OP does not see the need and is being obstinate in his argument, refusing to recognize the good advice he's getting. In a way, I'm glad he doesn't have the LTCH... If he can't be bothered with the technicalities of obeying the law, that's one fewer person likely to get in legal trouble while in possession of a LTCH, but at the same time, just carrying in and of itself is not likely to get anyone hurt.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[JBusch8899]

.....Some do not even know the laws, or what an LTCH even is.......

As I have just recently informed a police officer, particularly due to the fact that he is supposed to enforce the same, that there lies no excuse for ignorance of the law. He wasn't particularly pleased that I had evidence to his own opinion of the law.

With that said, there are plenty of laws which are codified, but have been judicially reviewed to twist the legislative meaning. There are also laws which are so complex and/or so blatantly obscure, that even the best legal minds aren't in agreement of their actual meaning.

While I understand the challenges, it is incumbent for each and every one of us to learn, and stay abreast of the legal changes in our society.

 

[singlestacksig]

Needing a License to take your gun to the range is ridiculous IMO. You have a right to protect your home and family, but should you choose to not get an LTCH/Hunting and range license then you better hope your naturally a good shot at 4 am in the dfark when your half asleep

there is an exception ;
IF you are a full member of a CMP club you can go to YOUR club for target practice..

(7) regularly enrolled members of any organization duly authorized to purchase or receive such weapons from the United States or from this state who are at or are going to or from their place of assembly or target practice

this does not apply to public ranges..

 

[88GT]

I don't have a problem with the LTCH law either, I would like to see unrestricted carry but that's just not realistic IMO.

There are at least 3 other states that say otherwise.

 

[sj kahr k40]

There are at least 3 other states that say otherwise.

I am talking about Indiana, I can't see the current system being changed to totally do away with the LTCH.