Thoughts on low capacity 9mm carry for self defense ?

[Denny347]

Comparing police shootings to the broad concept of general carry is nearly meaningless. The distances, the motivation of the attacker, the reactive nature of the encounter, etc. are all different.

Citizens vs random violence win or lose by surprise, speed, and violence of attack.

Surprise: Firing from ambush (home invasion or 3rd party defense while the bad guy is focused on someone else or feigning compliance until bad guy is distracted, etc)

Speed: Some take speed to mean a hell for leather draw, which is typically not the case. Speed is once you start any action that signals you're starting to fight you start the timer for them to notice and react, so some speed is required, but no false starts, no presenting a non-functioning weapon, etc.

Violence of attack: No hesitation, no standing there waiting for them to grapple the gun, but a committed attack until the threat is out of the fight, either down or disabled or fleeing.

Police, and targeted attacks in general, always look different. Higher round counts, greater distances, less chance for surprise on the defenders' side, and a much more highly motivated to stay in the fight adversary. The bad guy who's mugging you wants to live to mug another day and fleeing in the face of resistance is a great way to do that. The bad guy shooting it out with the police knows he can't just run away without being chased. Or he's already decided he's willing to die. Same with the jilted ex- who doesn't carry if he dies as long as he gets you, too. Much much different scenario and combining all these types into one bundle labeled 'average shooting' creates data that's meaningless to any of them.

Indeed. While off-duty and in my marked PD vehicle, I carry with high capacity in mind for the very reasons you have provided. When I'm traveling, like in NYC for instance, I carry off-duty with a non-LEO mindset and typically a .38 as capacity is not nearly that important. A S&W 642 with a speedstrip reload would feel very comfortable in any place I don't have to worry about being the police.

 

[ECS686]

"Police" does not mean ALL departments are the same Some departments put 30 rounds downrange once a year to qualify. I will say that IMPD may have its issues, the range isn't one of them. 2-full days of handgun and 1-day of rifle a year. Draw and firing from inside a vehicle. Shooting while moving. Shooting from concealed carry. All great stuff. Not all "police" are the same.

It was a general rule. If your personal department isn’t in that then don’t take it as anything personal.. A few do train but they are few and far between.

And I base this on almost 40 years of being part of Military, Municiple LE (in 2 states) and Federal LE training spectrum. As well as picking up a Rangemaster Advanced instructor class the stories of inadequate training happen more than departments that do train and add say B8 repair centers and Justin Dual assement drills.

 

[Denny347]

It was a general rule.

It's actually NOT a general rule. PD training runs the gamut in reality. From a little to a lot and everything in between.

Police do not train. Unless they are in a special team line officers are well pressed to shoot more than once a year. That along with the use of huge targets with unrealistic large scoring rings as well as easing standards gives Officers a false sense of proficiency

This did not sound like a general rule. Corrected, it would read, "SOME police do not train."
We've used B8 targets for certain drills but I've never seen them used for qualifications. I've only ever seen B27 and Indiana LETB recently did away with those anyways. Moved to the G-17 targets.

And I base this on almost 40 years of being part of Military, Municiple LE (in 2 states) and Federal LE training spectrum. As well as picking up a Rangemaster Advanced instructor class the stories of inadequate training happen more than departments that do train and add say B8 repair centers and Justin Dual assement drills.

I find little in Military nor Federal training that translates well to civilian LE. Just too different. I've been an Indiana LETB certified firearms instructor for almost a quarter of a century, for 3 departments. First dept, we had range once a month. Second, 30rds a year, and 3rd, 16-24hrs a year. I've seen other departments training curriculum, some of it total garbage, some of it stellar. I've had the fortune to be assigned as a full-time recruit training instructor before eventually making it back to the street.


I'm not bothered by the internet telling me how my profession is trained, Lord knows I've researched to death and am fully aware of our deficiencies. But, I have to interject when blanket statements are made that are false.

 

[ECS686]

It's actually NOT a general rule. PD training runs the gamut in reality. From a little to a lot and everything in between.

This did not sound like a general rule. Corrected, it would read, "SOME police do not train."
We've used B8 targets for certain drills but I've never seen them used for qualifications. I've only ever seen B27 and Indiana LETB recently did away with those anyways. Moved to the G-17 targets.

I find little in Military nor Federal training that translates well to civilian LE. Just too different. I've been an Indiana LETB certified firearms instructor for almost a quarter of a century, for 3 departments. First dept, we had range once a month. Second, 30rds a year, and 3rd, 16-24hrs a year. I've seen other departments training curriculum, some of it total garbage, some of it stellar. I've had the fortune to be assigned as a full-time recruit training instructor before eventually making it back to the street.


I'm not bothered by the internet telling me how my profession is trained, Lord knows I've researched to death and am fully aware of our deficiencies. But, I have to interject when blanket statements are made that are false.

There are some phenomenal programs at certain agencies I will stand by my use of the term “general” as the bull are not there. Most (or my general) have an 10/80/10 breakdown

As My examples of B8. Was not for qualification as the state usually has their hand in it however using them with one of the many assessment drills will make improvements and separate the kids from the adults. Like the 5 yard round up with a 2 1/2 par time most (a lot of them) that went to Red Dirs but no real training you watch them fishing for the dot with the ILEA time it’s no big deal but require them to shoot 1-4 rounds in that 2 1/2 seconds and they won’t make the 80 or 90% that r required

How many departments utilize above and beyond proficiency drills as mentioned it even the Bakersfield? Not most and if your agency supports their instructors you have it good!

 

[Scott58]

I've got 3 9mm pistols. A Taurus PF9, Rock Island 1911, and a CZ P10c. They couldn't be more different. For me the physical size of the Taurus doesn't out weigh The function of the CZ. Its easier to shoot and stay on target. Capacity is a 2ndary consideration. The 1911 is just to heavy for me to carry comfortably. It is one of my favorite range guns. Unless you need it to be completely invisible use what works for you.

 

[rugertoter]

Probably due to a perceived recent increase in handgun shootings I’ve traded out my EDC off farm from a J- frame to a 9 round 9mm . In my mind I’ve gained 4 rounds, but is it worth the hassle?

Off farm my chances of some kind of encounter are almost nil. But it still exists. My experience with the sidearm and caliber are extremely limited. Maybe a total of < 1000 rounds and maybe < 20 range sessions.

Iv’e carried a j-frame for ….well a long time. I’m quite proficient with one.

Iv’e been carrying this auto for the whole summer and I’m beginning to have doubts about the decision. Weight, size, big * holster catching on everything. Just looking for a group input, (this group). Keeping in mind I am fairly isolated and don’t interact with large groups much. Coffee with farmers at the small town cafe in the mourning is the most interactive I get. Of course going to a city is not part of my question?

Thanks.

I have been carrying my Taurus 856 for the last couple of days, with two spare speed strips, and I don't feel under gunned. Sometimes I'll carry a high capacity 9mm, and sometimes I'll carry my single stack 9's or .380's...don't feel handicapped in any way.

In my humble opinion, shot placement is king, and there are times when a revolver has the advantage. I don't plan on holding off a platoon, just surviving a threat, and most encounters only exchange three or four shots anyway.

I work hard at staying out of the middle of a fight, especially a gun fight.

 

[Leo]

When I was a young man, I figured the low cap compact pistol was to give me time to get to my full size .45 in a stocked duty belt, that gave me time to get to my M14.

Thankfully I have never had the situation to prove that my plan was a flawed or perfect.

 

[Mij]

Comparing police shootings to the broad concept of general carry is nearly meaningless. The distances, the motivation of the attacker, the reactive nature of the encounter, etc. are all different.

Citizens vs random violence win or lose by surprise, speed, and violence of attack.

Surprise: Firing from ambush (home invasion or 3rd party defense while the bad guy is focused on someone else or feigning compliance until bad guy is distracted, etc)

Speed: Some take speed to mean a hell for leather draw, which is typically not the case. Speed is once you start any action that signals you're starting to fight you start the timer for them to notice and react, so some speed is required, but no false starts, no presenting a non-functioning weapon, etc.

Violence of attack: No hesitation, no standing there waiting for them to grapple the gun, but a committed attack until the threat is out of the fight, either down or disabled or fleeing.

Police, and targeted attacks in general, always look different. Higher round counts, greater distances, less chance for surprise on the defenders' side, and a much more highly motivated to stay in the fight adversary. The bad guy who's mugging you wants to live to mug another day and fleeing in the face of resistance is a great way to do that. The bad guy shooting it out with the police knows he can't just run away without being chased. Or he's already decided he's willing to die. Same with the jilted ex- who doesn't carry if he dies as long as he gets you, too. Much much different scenario and combining all these types into one bundle labeled 'average shooting' creates data that's meaningless to any of them.

Thank you for the reality check.

I’m not anyones mouthpiece however issues with XD’s are well known. Run it through a 400 round a day class and there’s a high chance you will have an issue. I have seen countless XDs go down in classes and qualification shoots where Officers but their own guns.

I also know if an Illinois academy instructor that has nothing but disdain for XDs from his experience with recruits coming through with them. And I also have seen my Son I. law have issues with his XD with few rounds he has sense went to M&Ps without a hiccup!

Also, thank you for a real answer

 

[Mij]

"Police" does not mean ALL departments are the same Some departments put 30 rounds downrange once a year to qualify. I will say that IMPD may have its issues, the range isn't one of them. 2-full days of handgun and 1-day of rifle a year. Draw and firing from inside a vehicle. Shooting while moving. Shooting from concealed carry. All great stuff. Not all "police" are the same.

Again, thank you also.

 

[Mij]

I shoot approximately 4-5 days a week, (home range) sometimes 7. but that’s not average. I use firearms either handguns, or common hunting, plinking rifles on almost a daily basis.

I know criminal firearms use is on the downside compared to my younger years of the 60’s 70’s. As I said it is a perceived difference, I know it’s caused by the daily news stream.

Iv’e seen n read the guy’s out their LARPing around with the super guns and full tactic gear. That ain’t me. And I know well the difference between fantasy and reality.

Guess I’m just looking for a reason (viable) to go full time to a higher cap. firearm.

A big thanks and a Merry Christmas to all serious answers.



Now it’s time to go dig out a mod. 22 Glock n a few extra mags. Or a CZ, Or something in the 40 megawatt range.

 

[bwframe]

I have a G43. It's sweet shooting small pistol, yet not one for real proficiency without a fair amount of practice. Little pistols are honestly not for the beginners. Making it go bang is easy enough, but keeping a grip past the first round or two is often a challenge. A challenge that a lot of folks don't really address. They believe they will rise to the occasion, when necessary.

The G43 is my wedding and funeral pistol. It rides in various pockets in a Desantis Nemesis holster nicely. Couple extra extended mags ride in other pockets. None of these are fast to bring into play, but I have them. If I am not the target, there is a fair chance I can end a threat. Still, pistol capacity is always a concern. I strap on the G19 for the trip home.

I switched to polymer pistols from the 1911 some years back. Capacity was the primary reason. Back then the threat of concern was foreign terrorists. Terrorists used rifles and high capacity modern pistols.

These days we've not seen as much foreign terrorism as we did years ago. What we are seeing though is active shooters with high capacity firearms. Mentally challenged suicide seekers, with a desire to take innocents along with them. The other modern day threat is random gang/drug/thrill seeking, again with modern day high capacity firearms. This bad activity isn't just in the inner city any longer. Lots and lots more "shots fired" calls to local small town departments, far away from the metro's.

It's not super easy to throw a "compact" sized version of a full sized service pistol on your belt. It takes some practice and getting used to from the concealment standpoint and carry overall. There is real work involved, not poking holes in all of your shirts with door frames, chairs and seat belt assemblies. Conversely, not wearing holes in your dermis similarly.

That said, if you are up against what could be a modern day threat of a rifle or service pistol, maybe in multiples, then all the trouble to carry your modern day regular capacity pistol might just pay off?

Road ragers, car jackers, yutes having disputes, active shooters, etc. etc. etc. Don't forget about those cool new "switches."

One to three rounds, usually solves all problems...

...until it doesn't. Then where are you?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I have a G43. It's sweet shooting small pistol, yet not one for real proficiency without a fair amount of practice. Little pistols are honestly not for the beginners. Making it go bang is easy enough, but keeping a grip past the first round or two is often a challenge. A challenge that a lot of folks don't really address. They believe they will rise to the occasion, when necessary.

I can't shoot a G43 at anything approaching acceptable levels. I feel like I'm holding it with chopsticks. The G43X is another matter, it's as small as I can comfortably hold.

My son and I shot revolvers today. He's got small hands. He shot the LCR and my GP100 with compact grips very well but couldn't shoot my S&W K-frame with plow handle grips. He couldn't get a decent grip and reach the trigger.

Hand size matching to guns matters.

 

[Mij]

I have a G43. It's sweet shooting small pistol, yet not one for real proficiency without a fair amount of practice. Little pistols are honestly not for the beginners. Making it go bang is easy enough, but keeping a grip past the first round or two is often a challenge. A challenge that a lot of folks don't really address. They believe they will rise to the occasion, when necessary.

The G43 is my wedding and funeral pistol. It rides in various pockets in a Desantis Nemesis holster nicely. Couple extra extended mags ride in other pockets. None of these are fast to bring into play, but I have them. If I am not the target, there is a fair chance I can end a threat. Still, pistol capacity is always a concern. I strap on the G19 for the trip home.

I switched to polymer pistols from the 1911 some years back. Capacity was the primary reason. Back then the threat of concern was foreign terrorists. Terrorists used rifles and high capacity modern pistols.

These days we've not seen as much foreign terrorism as we did years ago. What we are seeing though is active shooters with high capacity firearms. Mentally challenged suicide seekers, with a desire to take innocents along with them. The other modern day threat is random gang/drug/thrill seeking, again with modern day high capacity firearms. This bad activity isn't just in the inner city any longer. Lots and lots more "shots fired" calls to local small town departments, far away from the metro's.

It's not super easy to throw a "compact" sized version of a full sized service pistol on your belt. It takes some practice and getting used to from the concealment standpoint and carry overall. There is real work involved, not poking holes in all of your shirts with door frames, chairs and seat belt assemblies. Conversely, not wearing holes in your dermis similarly.

That said, if you are up against what could be a modern day threat of a rifle or service pistol, maybe in multiples, then all the trouble to carry your modern day regular capacity pistol might just pay off?

Road ragers, car jackers, yutes having disputes, active shooters, etc. etc. etc. Don't forget about those cool new "switches."

One to three rounds, usually solves all problems...

...until it doesn't. Then where are you?

Another big thank you!

Ya, been out in the corn stubble for over 40 yrs. The more modern issues are what made me attempt a change. My world before this was Colt 1911. That ended in 80… Wife issues.

City life, had to change to keep a happy home…. Now it’s a different world. She changed her attitude. She carries a mod 37. Now at the coffee shop if a bad guy were to enter he would be in deep *, VN n WW2 , Iraq, and other vets all packing. But recently I’ve had to make more city travels. Hospitals mostly. Hence the attempt to change.

I will be prepared, I am always prepared to the best of my personal ability. I’m looking for ideas that will lead me down the next fork in my road.

Your advice is well considered, again , Thank You.

And Merry Christmas

 

[Mij]

I can't shoot a G43 at anything approaching acceptable levels. I feel like I'm holding it with chopsticks. The G43X is another matter, it's as small as I can comfortably hold.

My son and I shot revolvers today. He's got small hands. He shot the LCR and my GP100 with compact grips very well but couldn't shoot my S&W K-frame with plow handle grips. He couldn't get a decent grip and reach the trigger.

Hand size matching to guns matters.

I’ve got an old GP 100 DNR trade in, I think it’s.357 I may look at that. But it’s 4 in. Same as my old Security Six. I shoot that a few times a year. But the weight n size issues are my biggest concern.

What’s this Glock 43 you guys are talking about? Caliber? Capacity? WEIGHT? TY

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I’ve got an old GP 100 DNR trade in, I think it’s.357 I may look at that. But it’s 4 in. Same as my old Security Six. I shoot that a few times a year. But the weight n size issues are my biggest concern.

What’s this Glock 43 you guys are talking about? Caliber? Capacity? WEIGHT? TY

All the stats are on Glock's website. It's one of their single stacks.

The GP100 is almost certainly .357.

 

[Mij]

All the stats are on Glock's website. It's one of their single stacks.

The GP100 is almost certainly .357.

Yes got that, but thought like you (I surmise) I’d rather trust word of mouth from an individual than the www or fool tube.

Anyway thank you for your input. Merry Christmas. Truly, Thanks.

I‘m gonna look at Jerry’s shop n see if I can handle one of them. TY

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Yes got that, but thought like you (I surmise) I’d rather trust word of mouth from an individual than the www or fool tube.

Well, for basic stats I trust the manufacturer's site. That's where I would have went, as I don't recall capacity off the top of head (7 maybe?) and never knew the weight. It's smaller than an M&P Shield for sure.

 

[Indyhd]

I noticed the OPs original question was two parts, type of gun with number of rounds, and location/ carry arrangement.

While there will never be an agreement on carry piece or holster I put a lot of thought in the carry location/position recently due to the number of shootings while working in Indy. I realized that carrying at the 3 or 4 o'clock positions while seated in the truck made it very had to draw if someone attempted to carjack you while at a stoplight. I remedied this by changing to a cross draw holster.

My question to you guys who talk about pocket carry is how do you draw with any speed from a front pants pocket at any time, and especially when sitting in a vehicle with a seatbelt on ?

 

[Mij]

I noticed the OPs original question was two parts, type of gun with number of rounds, and location/ carry arrangement.

While there will never be an agreement on carry piece or holster I put a lot of thought in the carry location/position recently due to the number of shootings while working in Indy. I realized that carrying at the 3 or 4 o'clock positions while seated in the truck made it very had to draw if someone attempted to carjack you while at a stoplight. I remedied this by changing to a cross draw holster.

My question to you guys who talk about pocket carry is how do you draw with any speed from a front pants pocket at any time, and especially when sitting in a vehicle with a seatbelt on ?

Great point, in particular with bad arthritis in strong hand.

If Jerry’s gun shop is open tomorrow I’m going to look at the G 43 I’ve got to pick up a load of feed in Monon and I can work it in. If 9mm or better, that may be the ticket.

Just hope they make a strong side leather holster for it. But I’m guessing they do, it seems to be a popular carry piece. Thanks again to all.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I noticed the OPs original question was two parts, type of gun with number of rounds, and location/ carry arrangement.

While there will never be an agreement on carry piece or holster I put a lot of thought in the carry location/position recently due to the number of shootings while working in Indy. I realized that carrying at the 3 or 4 o'clock positions while seated in the truck made it very had to draw if someone attempted to carjack you while at a stoplight. I remedied this by changing to a cross draw holster.

My question to you guys who talk about pocket carry is how do you draw with any speed from a front pants pocket at any time, and especially when sitting in a vehicle with a seatbelt on ?

Every carry position has some weakness. I'm not real worried about carjackings at a stoplight, it's just not much of a thing compared to gas stations and the like. Add in if you're being held at gunpoint, drawing while under observation is a pretty solid way to catch a bullet. Better play is comply and then fight when their attention goes to the car if you choose to.

That said, if you are worried I think a two gun solution makes a lot of sense. Ankle holster is pretty easy to get to while seated without a lot of movement. Appendix works for me seated and belted, but others report they find the belt in their way. I think it depends on body shape, vehicle, etc.