The Real Costs of Electric Car Ownership - CNET

[JCSR]

I believe they are reusable, not just one and done. What's the cost for one of the pumper trucks?


4 firefighters for maybe 10 minutes? Or are you including all of them that were on scene for the house as well? If so I wonder what the labor cost was when my fridge went up and tried to take the house with it.

Of course you didn't watch the video or would have seen the firefighters escorted the burned and wrapped EV to the salvage yard. No EV fire has ever been extinguished in 10 minutes with or without a blanket.

 

[Ingomike]

To further add to this the lower income ranges depend on reliable used cars and so do a lot of the third world. That is another point of tragedy related to cash for clunkers, which was a marketing name not a truth. The replacement of ICE cars will drive up the cost of older cars to those that can least afford it and the current EV cars are not making it to twenty years without battery replacement which is typically double the cost of engine replacement.

I find it interesting people are concerned about what low income people will do when it's an EV thread but any sort of thread about a living wage for lower income folks tends to go a completely different direction. **** them for being poor. Work harder or get a better job if you want a car would be more consistent.

Stating market facts, that are not disputed, is similar to supporting “living wage”? It is virtually unprecedented that used vehickes are selling at insane percentages of MSRP. It affects considerably more than low income, it affects everyone. That the governments push to EV is exacerbating the situation is undeniable.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Stating market facts, that are not disputed, is similar to supporting “living wage”? It is virtually unprecedented that used vehickes are selling at insane percentages of MSRP. It affects considerably more than low income, it affects everyone. That the governments push to EV is exacerbating the situation is undeniable.

MSRPs for ICE vehicles have skyrocketed as well since the COVID shut downs, hardly an EV issue.

I mean, yeah. The purchasing power of the working person is either a concern or it isn't. Doesn't seem like a complex issue, but I'm sure folks can rationalize the split as they like. I don't care enough to argue it further.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Of course you didn't watch the video or would have seen the firefighters escorted the burned and wrapped EV to the salvage yard. No EV fire has ever been extinguished in 10 minutes with or without a blanket.

Yes I watched it, add another 30 minutes. And do you think on a regular house fire the firefighters just go okay it's out, let's head back? I know after mine they were here for a while, and would have had a guy or 2 here longer if I wasn't going to be around.

 

[JCSR]

Yes I watched it, add another 30 minutes. And do you think on a regular house fire the firefighters just go okay it's out, let's head back? I know after mine they were here for a while, and would have had a guy or 2 here longer if I wasn't going to be around.

Did firefighters have to follow a flatbed truck to a salvage yard when you had a fire? You said "4 firefighters for maybe 10 minutes?" 10 minutes to do what? Are you saying an EV fire takes no addition time and resources?

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Did firefighters have to follow a flatbed truck to a salvage yard when you had a fire? You said "4 firefighters for maybe 10 minutes?" 10 minutes to do what? Are you saying an EV fire takes no addition time and resources?

About 10 minutes to unfold the blanket and drag it over the car. Nope didn't have to follow anything, just hang out in my yard. Every truck had left but one and they asked if I was going to be there for at least an hour. I said yes, and they said they were going to go then. That they thought they had gotten it all but keep an eye on it and call if I saw anything at all.

A fire like in the video the fact that it was a EV rather than an ICE added minimal time and resources. At least IMO.

I don't own an EV and probably never will, I have nothing against them (govt subsidies and such yes) and one would work for probably 99% or more of the driving for my wife and myself. But what I want they don't make, a diesel electric hybrid with a smallish battery maybe 50ish miles tops. 25 would be just fine. In a 1/2 ton pickup. Oh and an easily replaceable off the shelf battery, think electric forklift.

 

[firecadet613]

About 10 minutes to unfold the blanket and drag it over the car. Nope didn't have to follow anything, just hang out in my yard. Every truck had left but one and they asked if I was going to be there for at least an hour. I said yes, and they said they were going to go then. That they thought they had gotten it all but keep an eye on it and call if I saw anything at all.

A fire like in the video the fact that it was a EV rather than an ICE added minimal time and resources. At least IMO.

I don't own an EV and probably never will, I have nothing against them (govt subsidies and such yes) and one would work for probably 99% or more of the driving for my wife and myself. But what I want they don't make, a diesel electric hybrid with a smallish battery maybe 50ish miles tops. 25 would be just fine. In a 1/2 ton pickup. Oh and an easily replaceable off the shelf battery, think electric forklift.

I believe the major issue with EV fires is they often reignite.

 

[jamil]

MSRPs for ICE vehicles have skyrocketed as well since the COVID shut downs, hardly an EV issue.

I mean, yeah. The purchasing power of the working person is either a concern or it isn't. Doesn't seem like a complex issue, but I'm sure folks can rationalize the split as they like. I don't care enough to argue it further.

It is an EV issue, at least a bit. Tesla is about the only EV manufacturer making money on them. Stellantis CEO said they’re increasing MSRP and prioritizing the sale of the more profitable luxury cars to subsidize the EV’s.

That means fewer lower priced vehicles are available, which causes their price to increase. So at least some of the inflated prices for new vehicles are due to EV’s.

I don’t have a problem with EV’s. There are niche markets for them. I have a problem with government pushing these vehicles on the public, especially for ideological reasons. This is one of the areas of commerce where the market should decide.

 

[jamil]

I find it interesting people are concerned about what low income people will do when it's an EV thread but any sort of thread about a living wage for lower income folks tends to go a completely different direction. **** them for being poor. Work harder or get a better job if you want a car would be more consistent.

I don’t think there is such a dilemma here. It’s just a difference of thinking.

You might think that if people here really cared about the poor they would choose your solution for helping them. Is a living wage the right answer? It’s an answer. I think there are better solutions than a general labor job at a fast food restaurant being a life’s occupation.

Is a living wage at McDonald’s a better solution for making cars affordable? I don’t think so. That doesn’t mean I don’t care about the poor.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

It is an EV issue, at least a bit. Tesla is about the only EV manufacturer making money on them. Stellantis CEO said they’re increasing MSRP and prioritizing the sale of the more profitable luxury cars to subsidize the EV’s.

Tesla's per unit profit is dropping pretty dramatically as well. They aren't the only game in town any longer and are having to compete on price more and more. Once the other makers stop buying carbon credits from them, that's hurt even more. They are still making money, mind you.

I put what a CEO says publicly in the same bucket as politicians. Maybe he's telling the truth, maybe he's spinning it for his voters/investors. I would note they killed their small sedans long before EVs were a thing. There's no more Chrysler 200 since 2016 or 17.

Note that every manufacturer dropped some base trims and consolidated their produce lineup during the chip crunch and COVID supply line issues. They made more money per unit and sold every unit they could produce. Would you believe him if he said "we're going to make less money so that people can have more affordable cars and we care about that more than shareholders!" Yeah, me either. They are going to take the profit they can regardless. That's what he gets paid to do.

Carbon credit game and CAFE standards were the only thing keeping small low profit cars alive. The market largely rejected them anyway, preferring foreign brands in the segment if they bought one. In that lens, I see why they would want EVs and to eliminate the need for a Chevy Aveo or Ford Ecosport. **** cars nobody wanted to begin with but CAFE made them a necessary evil in a segment the Japanese and Koreans owned nearly completely.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

I believe the major issue with EV fires is they often reignite.

Yep, that's why they don't just pull the blanket off as soon as it's out. They leave it on until it's cooled off.

 

[firecadet613]

Yep, that's why they don't just pull the blanket off as soon as it's out. They leave it on until it's cooled off.

Yep.... much longer than 10 minutes...

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Yep.... much longer than 10 minutes...

Firemen don't need to be there. As in the video they leave it on at the boneyard. And regular house fires reignite as well, which is why my local FD wanted to know if I was going to be there for at least an hour. Which was probably about an hour after the fire was out when they asked.

 

[MCgrease08]

 

[Hawkeye]

Yep.... much longer than 10 minutes...

From my work with VFD's, it's not that unusual for them to leave a fire-watch of a couple of guys on-scene for several hours to watch for re-ignition. I think that is particularly true on barn fires.

 

[jamil]

Tesla's per unit profit is dropping pretty dramatically as well. They aren't the only game in town any longer and are having to compete on price more and more. Once the other makers stop buying carbon credits from them, that's hurt even more. They are still making money, mind you.

I put what a CEO says publicly in the same bucket as politicians. Maybe he's telling the truth, maybe he's spinning it for his voters/investors. I would note they killed their small sedans long before EVs were a thing. There's no more Chrysler 200 since 2016 or 17.

Note that every manufacturer dropped some base trims and consolidated their produce lineup during the chip crunch and COVID supply line issues. They made more money per unit and sold every unit they could produce. Would you believe him if he said "we're going to make less money so that people can have more affordable cars and we care about that more than shareholders!" Yeah, me either. They are going to take the profit they can regardless. That's what he gets paid to do.

Carbon credit game and CAFE standards were the only thing keeping small low profit cars alive. The market largely rejected them anyway, preferring foreign brands in the segment if they bought one. In that lens, I see why they would want EVs and to eliminate the need for a Chevy Aveo or Ford Ecosport. **** cars nobody wanted to begin with but CAFE made them a necessary evil in a segment the Japanese and Koreans owned nearly completely.

I don't see any reason for the CEO to be lying about losing money on EV's. That fact is well known within the industry, not just by what the CEO says. It's true that none of the EV manufacturers other than Tesla make a profit on EV's. It's not just American manufactures. It's worldwide.

It's also a fact that the industry is being pushed into EV's by climate hysteria. And not all car makers are okay with that. Toyota has been reluctant to embrace EV's. They're pursuing other alternatives in their R&D. I think once better battery tech is developed, that'll change. It's probably one of the reasons why Tesla is ahead of break-even, they have the best battery technology in the industry. As others catch up, they'll lose that advantage. Long term, if I owned Tesla stock, I'd prolly short it at some point.

So all the manufactuers are subsidizing the cost of making EV's. They're all jacking MSRP and/or prioritizing more high end vehicles to do it. Of course that's not just because of EV's, because some companies are just in dire straights for other reasons.

Harley Davidson, for example. They have to increase their profitability overall, because they're in a dwindling market. They do make some electric bikes, but on a much smaller scale. Naturally, that's subsidized by the more profitable bikes they sell because they sell the electric lineup at a loss. But it's a small loss compared with the auto industry by volume. So they've been making more of the higher end bikes at the expense of the lower. And that's exactly what many automobile manufactuers are doing, at least in part, to subsidize the losses on EV's.

 

[firecadet613]

Firemen don't need to be there. As in the video they leave it on at the boneyard. And regular house fires reignite as well, which is why my local FD wanted to know if I was going to be there for at least an hour. Which was probably about an hour after the fire was out when they asked.

I didn't watch the video, so good to know they leave it on at the boneyard.

All fires have hot spots which can quickly and easily light back up...I may know a thing or two about fires.

As with most stuff they push, all the great benefits of an EV are turning out to be lies.

With 30,000 miles on the '23 I picked up in May or my gas guzzling Hemi pickup, I'm surely not their target audience!

 

[Leadeye]

Maybe manufacturers could adopt the same tactic as colleges, raise the price to the moon and just let the government increase the subsidy.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I don't see any reason for the CEO to be lying about losing money on EV's.

Not what I was addressing, but sure. R&D costs (which Tesla doesn't report in per unit profits, btw) are front loaded, and they are trying to break into a market with an existing legacy business to drag along.

I'm talking about the rationale. What he says doesn't match what they've done. MSRP raised regardless and cheaper cars fell out of the line up regardless, and often well before EVs were a thing. Did EV development costs just happen to coincide with COVID supply chain restrictions?

Not Chrysler/Stellantis, but easy example:

Ford makes the Maverick, a hybrid, and the cheapest vehicle they offer by a large margin. $11k cheaper for the base compared to the base F-150. How many do they actually build? F-150 sales are some 7:1 to last year.

The new Ranger Raptor, significantly cheaper than the F-150 Raptor at $21k less base vs base. I was seriously interested in potentially buying one, but they don't exist except on paper and in foreign markets, a mere handful have been built for the US market. Plenty of F-150 Raptors, though.

Which brings us back to the question I asked. If EVs were never a thing do you think they would build *more* Mavericks and *less* F-150s so they could make less money but there would be more opportunities for lower market buying? More Rangers and fewer Broncos and F-150s? I don't.

 

[JCSR]

For those that still haven't watch the video here are some important details. As you can see it took many personnel and resources.

Once firefighters knew that an electric
vehicle was involved the Hazardous Materials team responded to the scene
those apparatus are equipped with a
specialized electric vehicle fire
blanket

A Metro Fire Rescue pickup truck
was used to pull the burning electric
vehicle out of the garage and onto the
driveway where it was safer and there
was less of a risk of the house catching
on fire.

Blankets cost anywhere between $3,000 and
$5,000 and the one that we are using
here at South Metro weighs 62 lbs so
it's a very heavy blanket it takes at least 4 people to place on the vehicle.

Two blankets were used at this
incident really out of an abundance of
caution fire investigators determined
that the red vehicle that you see in the
video is where the fire originated and
that is an electric vehicle the second
vehicle in the garage is a hybrid
meaning it does have a lithium ion
battery pack. Out of an abundance of caution our firefighters used the same protocol covered it with the blanket and took it to a safe location.

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