The Pink Elephant (T.R. Video)

[Britton]

Hey guys, it really is no big deal. You have to understand TR and the training they have to offer to fully understand it. I train at least once a month and it is on 1 360 degree range with mostly other alumni. Seeing the video did not bother me at all, perhaps because I know James and all of the instructors. Sure, it might be percieved a bit more dangerous then other training, but it really is not.
You know, we are going to face some hard times in the future and if the training that I and others take looks a bit dangerous then I am fine with that, as long as it better prepares me to take care of my family and team mates.

 

[Britton]

I sell guns and gun accessories! (That is what I make a living at and I support my family with.) But, if I had my way all of us would spend our money on the training that TR offers then new gizmos for their AR15.
A gun dealer that does not want more of your money, I hope that tells you how strongly I feel about good training. If you don't take a class from TR, then take one from someone else, but please get good training. Not because I care if your a better shot then you were before, but because we will all need each other in the future.

 

[kingnereli]

Ok, I'm coming into this a little late so let me make sure I have everything strait. I take it that this is verifiably footage from an actual Tactical Response course. Also that this kind of practice is regular and condoned by TR. If this is true I will cancel my plans to take a coarse with them in the near future. No training is worth this disregard for safety. Nor is it plausible that having a camera man beside your target increases the quality of your training. The stress level of being around so much stupidity get your heart rate up, but that's as far as it goes.

But, in the spirit of open mindedness and acceptance I would like to ask for a volunteer to come to the range with me and help improve my training. I've always wanted to try one of those tricks where you shoot the cigarette out of someone's mouth. Or maybe I could shoot your exact silhouette on a piece of card board. Any takers?

 

[Barry in IN]

As said, if the cameraman was there only to take pictures, then get a remote.

If, as also said, he was there to get students accustomed to a 360 degree world rather than the typical 180 degree firing range, there are better ways of doing it. Put something expensive between targets like an ATV or somebody's car if they have to.
Potentially costly? Maybe, but cheap in comparison to that alternative.

If the idea is to induce stress, and that is the best way they can come up with...
Well...good instructors seem to have no problem stressing the calmest, coolest, guy in the class if they want or need to.

I don't see that it does anything that can't be done some other way.
In other words: I see it as a crutch to make up for lack of instructor skill or a gimmick.

Sound mean or unfair? I don't care.

The first time a shooter gets a "catch" or cramp when he rises from kneeling and hooks one through the photog's lens into his face, we will ALL pay for it. An accident on a typical firing line is one thing, but have one in this example and there will be no mercy at all.
Look at the screaming here, where it's our own people and nobody was shot. Just imagine if they were. What possible defense or explanation will save the instructor?

An accident here could end firearms training for all of us. If it didn't get legislated away, insurance could kill it.
If someone wants to expose themselves to that type of risk, go ahead. Just don't jeopardize the very existence of firearms training by doing it and ruin things for the rest of us.

 

[HICKMAN]

I understand everyone's screaming about safety, but the truth is, you don't have 180 in combat or on the street if bangers walk up on you.

If your kid was walking ten feet ahead of you and someone jumped out of the bushes with a knife, you're not gonna have time to get the kid safely behind you, you are going to react.

I'd rather see safety on a range, but that didn't bother me all that much.

After all, most of the ranges we shoot at are "cold", but that's not how we carry...

 

[Sailor]

Oddly..... On a daily basis we hurtle toward and by each other in 1000lbs + machines at incredible speeds. Usually with nothing more than trust in a perfect strangers training, a yellow line, and mere inches separating us from inevitable doom...

From another forum.

 

[Joe Williams]

From another forum.

And 50,000 people a year are killed in those cars. Not sure that's something I'd want to use as an argument for acceptable safety performance.

 

[Coach]

As said, if the cameraman was there only to take pictures, then get a remote.

If, as also said, he was there to get students accustomed to a 360 degree world rather than the typical 180 degree firing range, there are better ways of doing it. Put something expensive between targets like an ATV or somebody's car if they have to.
Potentially costly? Maybe, but cheap in comparison to that alternative.

If the idea is to induce stress, and that is the best way they can come up with...
Well...good instructors seem to have no problem stressing the calmest, coolest, guy in the class if they want or need to.

I don't see that it does anything that can't be done some other way.
In other words: I see it as a crutch to make up for lack of instructor skill or a gimmick.

Sound mean or unfair? I don't care.

The first time a shooter gets a "catch" or cramp when he rises from kneeling and hooks one through the photog's lens into his face, we will ALL pay for it. An accident on a typical firing line is one thing, but have one in this example and there will be no mercy at all.
Look at the screaming here, where it's our own people and nobody was shot. Just imagine if they were. What possible defense or explanation will save the instructor?

An accident here could end firearms training for all of us. If it didn't get legislated away, insurance could kill it.
If someone wants to expose themselves to that type of risk, go ahead. Just don't jeopardize the very existence of firearms training by doing it and ruin things for the rest of us.

Amen. +100. Common sense!

 

[BloodEclipse]

Useful? Maybe.
Foolish? No doubt about it.

 

[bwframe]

Wonder what level class this was?

 

[Vigilant]

"Train like you fight" comes to mind. Paper punch 101, probably not, but a "Fighting Pistol/Rifle/Swiffer" class, well, there are bound to be bystanders "downrange".

 

[bwframe]

"Train like you fight" comes to mind. Paper punch 101, probably not, but a "Fighting Pistol/Rifle/Swiffer" class, well, there are bound to be bystanders "downrange".

Don't get me wrong, I'm trying to be objective here. A 360 degree range sort of class could most certainly be in my future, if I can determine that safety is not completely thrown out the window.

On a 360 degree range, aren't there always bystanders "downrange"?

 

[Vigilant]

Don't get me wrong, I'm trying to be objective here. A 360 degree range sort of class could most certainly be in my future, if I can determine that safety is not completely thrown out the window.

On a 360 degree range, aren't there always bystanders "downrange"?

That's what the whole point of the photographer being "downrange" was. Still in watching the video over and over, I did not see any instance of one of the "Big 4" being broken.

 

[bwframe]

Still in watching the video over and over, I did not see any instance of one of the "Big 4" being broken.

Right, from the camera angle of the vid you cannot. A much more telling vid would be from the "camera man's" perspective. A high speed cam on the four shooters in front of him would have told the true story of how many times he was swept during draws and malfunction clearing.

 

[Lars]

for what it's worth. Having trained with people who have been affiliated with the school in question. If any of the four rules were violated..... there would have been a lot of yelling, tackling, and otherwise unfriendly things happening to the violator.

 

[Militarypol21]

Does he get hazard pay at least???

 

[Coach]

Does he get hazard pay at least???

Hell no! It was perfectly safe, and all gun handling rules were followed and shooters have been missing this guy for years. This is the new normal, and anyone who disagrees is not hardcore.

*This post was made in a snotty sarcastic fashion. The poster in no way believes the ******** posted above.

 

[Militarypol21]

Hell no! It was perfectly safe, and all gun handling rules were followed and shooters have been missing this guy for years. This is the new normal, and anyone who disagrees is not hardcore.

I guess you can call me a wuss then hahaha... beats getting my brains splattered all over the ground if someone is having an "off day"

 

[Barry in IN]

Wonder what level class this was?

A few things make me think it wasn't very high.
You can't see much of the shooters since they seemed to be secondary to the cameraman in the view, but when I watched it yesterday here is what jumped out at me:

-You can only see one or two drawstrokes because of the camera movement, but watch the drawstroke of the lady in the dark shirt near the left end of the line. A rollercoaster would give the gun a straighter path to the target.

-The camera mostly stays on the guy in the white shirt, and when he rises and scans, he gives an ideal demonstration of the "Half Sabrina".

-Nobody is moving (well, except to further immobilize themselves by going to kneeling). OK, so maybe this was the odd drill where they try to show there are exceptions to moving- like if you are forced to go into one certain position to get a better target angle- but I have my doubts.
Not many classes keep you stationary after the first day, which makes remaining stationary when shooting the exception. These shooters seemed pretty comfortable remaining in place.

Realism
For those who say this cameraman was there to make it more realistic by reinforcing that it's a 360 degree world, etc, then think about these things:

-If they were really trying to make it realistic, why was everybody there (I could see) training with an open carry holster? I know this is an open carry state, but very few actually open carry, so everyone doing it in a class is hardly realistic. If they were duty rigs, I could see it, but that's not what I saw.
I see it in every class so it's nothing unique, but if I were striving for realism I would sure address that before putting a live body by the targets.

-Why are the targets fully exposed, standing straight up like statues? That's not very "realistic".
I know it's not easy or cheap to get targets that scurry around at random, but there are things you can do. Blocking off some area of the target to represent hard cover or simply placing them at angles other than straight up can add considerable difficulty and realism.
I would sure do that before putting a live body next to them.

Someone compared other training to paper punching.
Which is more "realistic"? Drawing from concealment while moving, and continuing to move while making hits on partially obscured targets...or...standing still and drawing from an exposed OWB Kydex holster and shooting the target in front of you with a cameraman kneeling by them? One is helpful, and one is paper punching with a hazard.

I'll answer my own questions about why the open carry holsters and stationary targets.
Because it's easier. It's easier to do, so it's easier to see results, making the student feel he did great. But it needed sometiing else, so they added a body.
Like I said in my last post- The live body as a background feature is just a crutch for the instructor.
And it makes a great gimmick.

And one that can hang us all if/when he takes a bullet.
I can see the 60 Minutes expose on firearms training now. There isn't much they can say now, but this can give it to them.
When people are whining because a three-day class costs well over $1,000...if you can find one at all...I'll point them to this thread for a video reason why.

 

[kingnereli]

Hell no! It was perfectly safe, and all gun handling rules were followed and shooters have been missing this guy for years. This is the new normal, and anyone who disagrees is not hardcore.

I say anyone who doesn't practice hostage shots with their kids in place at greater then 30 yards with a snub nose magnum isn't hardcore. Yet, here are all you lightweights worried about a little ol' photographer down range.