The Pink Elephant (T.R. Video)

[Barry in IN]

Oh, and...
Yes, I fully understand that we may have to use a gun when there are innocents in front of us. If that is the case, and we do actually shoot, it will be because we DON'T have a choice.
And that is the difference.

 

[Joe Williams]

I think if realism is the excuse... oops, reason... for that type of "training," instead of a camera the guy down range ought to have his own gun.

 

[Britton]

I think if realism is the excuse... oops, reason... for that type of "training," instead of a camera the guy down range ought to have his own gun.

I am sure he did.

 

[Joe Williams]

I am sure he did.

Didn't see him shooting back at the students. Now THAT would introduce some real stress, just like in the real world.

 

[phylodog]

I have not trained with TR and I will attempt to remain as respectful as possible but I'm sorry, this is chest thumping, macho BS at it's finest.

There is a very effective way to train 360* and it's called Simmunitions. If the proper protective gear is worn to reduce the risk of injury is it every bit as effective as live fire. If protective gear is limited to only what is necessary to prevent injury I would argue that Simmunitions is more effective than live fire by providing immediate and painful feedback of your mistakes.

Proper training focuses on placing accurate fire onto your intended target. It doesn't matter if there is a 6yo girl or a 4 ton elephant standing next to the target, a miss is a miss. If you miss your target you are ineffective, if only momentarily. I don't need a live person standing next to the target to induce stress. Unless that person is shooting back the stress induced will not come close to replicating the stress of a life and death encounter. I've been millimeters away from sending rounds onto a live target on numerous occasions and I've had to follow through once. I've spent hundreds of hours on 180* ranges and 360* live fire shoot houses over the last 10 years and nothing, nothing has ever come close to recreating that level of stress. That cameraman standing there wouldn't have either.

I know my abilities and I'm confident that I could shoot with someone standing next to my target without fear of hitting them. I also believe in not taking unnecessary risks. There is no training benefit to this behavior that justifies it's use. There is a very large competition amongst trainers to be the "top dog" and the one providing the best training. It has apparently gotten beyond ridiculous. Apparently reinventing the wheel has gotten old so we're beginning to put lives at risk in the name of HSLD training.

Good training = the proper and efficient application of the fundamentals regardless of the situation. Do this when it counts and it won't matter who is standing near the bad guy. Do this faster than the bad guy and you win.

 

[VUPDblue]

I have not trained with TR and I will attempt to remain as respectful as possible but I'm sorry, this is chest thumping, macho BS at it's finest.

There is a very effective way to train 360* and it's called Simmunitions. If the proper protective gear is worn to reduce the risk of injury is it every bit as effective as live fire. If protective gear is limited to only what is necessary to prevent injury I would argue that Simmunitions is more effective than live fire by providing immediate and painful feedback of your mistakes.

Proper training focuses on placing accurate fire onto your intended target. It doesn't matter if there is a 6yo girl or a 4 ton elephant standing next to the target, a miss is a miss. If you miss your target you are ineffective, if only momentarily. I don't need a live person standing next to the target to induce stress. Unless that person is shooting back the stress induced will not come close to replicating the stress of a life and death encounter. I've been millimeters away from sending rounds onto a live target on numerous occasions and I've had to follow through once. I've spent hundreds of hours on 180* ranges and 360* live fire shoot houses over the last 10 years and nothing, nothing has ever come close to recreating that level of stress. That cameraman standing there wouldn't have either.

I know my abilities and I'm confident that I could shoot with someone standing next to my target without fear of hitting them. I also believe in not taking unnecessary risks. There is no training benefit to this behavior that justifies it's use. There is a very large competition amongst trainers to be the "top dog" and the one providing the best training. It has apparently gotten beyond ridiculous. Apparently reinventing the wheel has gotten old so we're beginning to put lives at risk in the name of HSLD training.

Good training = the proper and efficient application of the fundamentals regardless of the situation. Do this when it counts and it won't matter who is standing near the bad guy. Do this faster than the bad guy and you win.

This.

 

[Cpt Caveman]

Too much chance for someone to get hurt . I wouldn't shoot with anyone down range. Whether they wanted to be there or not.
Geez a guy could sneeze, have an epileptic siezure or a heart attack. Man, just too much opportunity for Murphy to dig his claws in and start the blood flowin. Not too smart in my estimation.,

 

[Biohazard]

...Does not look he was ever swept with a muzzle....

On the computer screen it's 2 dimensional. You really can't tell if that was, or was not, the case.

 

[Sailor]

On the computer screen it's 2 dimensional. You really can't tell if that was, or was not, the case.

You are correct, it is hard to tell what angle he is in relation to the shooter.

Does anyone do 360 scans as part of your training? For me its automatic, done every time and just part of the process. It makes everything down range.

Hopefully since I train that way, I will act that way if needed.

 

[ChalupaCabras]

I find it interesting how many people who were not there feel they have enough information to make a definitive judgment on safety.

I also find it interesting how many people who have never been part of such a drill or in any real combat think they can make a call on its effectiveness for that purpose.

 

[Lars]

....Does anyone do 360 scans as part of your training? For me its automatic, done every time and just part of the process. It makes everything down range.....

Always.... With my muzzle pointed straight down, or straight up.
Just because "everything" is down range, doesn't mean I'm sweeping them with the muzzle.

 

[ChalupaCabras]

Up or down is not always a safe position to orient your muzzle. Why not keep the muzzle oriented at your last target while you scan?

 

[Britton]

Why not keep the muzzle oriented at your last target while you scan?

Hard to turn your head 360 and still keep you weapon pointed in the direction of the target. Also, the purpose of scanning is to see if there are any other threats, if there are then it would be a wise decision to have you weapon pointed up or down ready to take aim and engage the threat.

 

[bwframe]

Hard to turn your head 360 and still keep you weapon pointed in the direction of the target. Also, the purpose of scanning is to see if there are any other threats, if there are then it would be a wise decision to have you weapon pointed up or down ready to take aim and engage the threat.

So it's best to take your muzzle off of a known threat and turn your back on it to look for more?

 

[shooter521]

Hard to turn your head 360 and still keep you weapon pointed in the direction of the target.

Snap the head ~180 one way, then ~180 the other way, keeping your weapon more or less oriented toward your most recent adversary.

if there are then it would be a wise decision to have you weapon pointed up or down ready to take aim and engage the threat.

It was brought up in a recent course I took that IF one chooses to scan 360, it should be done as quickly and dynamically as possible while still actually searching as opposed to just going through the motions. Doing the slow pirouette shown in the video is a LONG time to keep your eyes and weapon off the guy you just put down.

Which is the greater likelihood or threat - that there will be an unknown adversary behind you, or that the known adversary you just engaged might not be down for the count? Judgement call.

Whatever method you choose, practice it.

 

[Joe Williams]

Hard to turn your head 360 and still keep you weapon pointed in the direction of the target. Also, the purpose of scanning is to see if there are any other threats, if there are then it would be a wise decision to have you weapon pointed up or down ready to take aim and engage the threat.

If you are really concerned about a threat behind you, you should be moving while scanning, not standing there with your gun pointed at the sky while spinning in circles.

 

[Britton]

Whatever method you choose, practice it.

Agree, 100%!

If you are really concerned about a threat behind you, you should be moving while scanning, not standing there with your gun pointed at the sky while spinning in circles.

Agree, move all the time, on first contact and also reloading or transitioning.

 

[ChalupaCabras]

I was taught to pull the gun back into my body, keeping the muzzle pointed in the direction of the original threat, and THEN scan. This gives you more room to scan, as it frees up your shoulders.

 

[Sailor]

Always.... With my muzzle pointed straight down, or straight up.
Just because "everything" is down range, doesn't mean I'm sweeping them with the muzzle.

Exactly.

My point is it is not black and white. While a strict 180 deg rule works fine with your rifle on a bench punching paper, its not useful for realistic training.

If you want to train on a square range with your perfect weaver stance, firing no more than one shot every couple of seconds, great. We are all on the same side, but thats not me.

We all train differently, we need to accept that, and tone down the knee jerk reactions and judgments.

 

[Britton]

A lot of it comes from the different schools of thought and training. You are pretty much a product of your training and education. As long as folks are actually training, that is all that really matters.