The Open Carry Argument

[2A_Tom]

I've been OCing in NWI for a "while".

I'm tired of all the times I've been arrested, crowds pointing at me, being the first shot in robberies, etc.

Especially when I'm with Tom.

Do you remember that time we were sitting peacefully at Brothers and everything was just fine?

Or did the police surround us with guns drawn and when I reached for my wallet to leave a tip they shot me?

I carry in every town in NWI and often have interactions with police (I always stop to thank them and express my chagrin with the way they are treated now) and they are always pleasant, even when I am aware they are assessing my threat level.

 

[2A_Tom]

Avoiding trouble- as in not doing dumb stuff like going to the atm in a bad part of town at 3 AM or going with a shady acquaintance to “pick up something” in a run down apartment building or picking fights with people in public.

Stay within the law- teaching folks to respond to violence with the appropriate level of pro social lawful violence without ending up in prison because you thought you could shoot someone for threatening to punch you or for pushing you as Michael Drejka found out.

Goal posts. We are talking about Openly Carrying firearms.

Yeah, that is what I do. You really have me pegged!

I’ve seen plenty of openly armed folks that give off the vibe of a cheeseburger waiting to be eaten

And all of those people were surrounded by cops/thugs?

Your OPINION is "I don't like OC!" Have you even read the article in the Original Post?

 

[cedartop]

I just wanted to sharpen the point of what is legal and what is not. It appeared in your post you were insinuating OC is legal but not smart. However, OC is smart in many situations (darn near all). It makes you a hard target for the criminal. Just because there are idiots out there who think OC is legal, doesn't make them right. Police should know the law, but often do not. I've had to education a few officers as well on what the law is.

Now, to address this post, what if you do have to go to the bad part of town at 3am for whatever reason, like dropping a friend off, delivery food, getting out of work, etc? Wouldn't carrying be a smart thing to do? Or should the person remain unarmed? Should the person appear to be a hard target or a soft one? There are plenty of soft targets (or appear to be soft, CC) out there. I will agree, staying out of a fight is a fantastic idea, but what if you are the one being attacked and not able to deescalate a situation? Should you not be armed to defend yourself from great bodily harm? I'm sure you could have added it and just didn't because it is hard to rehash these situations in every single post.

To start with, I have become pretty agnostic with how someone carries, or if they do at all for that matter. Not my circus. However, I have, some would say, an exorbitant amount of training in the use of handguns, rifles, FOF, medical, combatives, etc. I have trained with dozens of professional instructors and I can't think of any of them who think OC is a good idea. To my knowledge most of them support it from a legal standpoint, just not from a tactical one. Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying people who OC are a bunch of untrained buffoons or anything like that, just saying that among the highly trained it is usually frowned upon.

 

[gorge]

To start with, I have become pretty agnostic with how someone carries, or if they do at all for that matter. Not my circus. However, I have, some would say, an exorbitant amount of training in the use of handguns, rifles, FOF, medical, combatives, etc. I have trained with dozens of professional instructors and I can't think of any of them who think OC is a good idea. To my knowledge most of them support it from a legal standpoint, just not from a tactical one. Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying people who OC are a bunch of untrained buffoons or anything like that, just saying that among the highly trained it is usually frowned upon.

I'd really like to dig deep why so many trainers think CC is better than OC. Every single point I've ever heard, was addressed in the OP. If you know why trainers are so adamantly against OC, I'd love to know why. One of these days I'll take additional training, but funds are just not available for me to do so at this time.

 

[cbhausen]

No I live in TN but do travel to and occasionally teach classes in Indiana and a bunch of other states .

As to education...I prefer to educate in a class environment not in Walmart or the gas station. Being an unpaid OC crusader generally has a lot of potential downside with little potential upside.

As to those situations being resolved without bloodshed...Luckily..... but those situations wouldn't have happened AT ALL if their guns had not been visible. Relying on luck is not a good strategy and I prefer to be invisible to not only the the criminals, but the police and the "Karens" also. Those last two cause more trouble for gun carriers than the criminals tend to.

“unpaid OC crusader”… I like that. In fact, I like it so much I’m adding it to all the other qualifications in my signature. Have a nice day, sir.

 

[2A_Tom]

“unpaid OC crusader”… I like that. In fact, I like it so much I’m adding it to all the other qualifications in my signature. Have a nice day, sir.

The angry face is because that disparaging remark was made directly to me! Therefore I own all rights to it and you must pay me for the use of it. You owe me one round of .45 ACP annually, in perpetuity for the use of it.

Earlier, I said that I was an OC advocate. That is not true and I misspoke. I am not an OC advocate. I AN a 2A advocate. I OC, because it is comfortable. It has given me the opportunity to advocate for carry issues on Many occasions.

Years ago, I was accosted by police either on the job or second security job that did not know the law. The fact that I did made some of them mad, but I was right and they had no recourse but to (angrily) tell me to leave. I only got shot once or twice as I remember.

In recent years every interaction I have had with law enforcement have been pleasant.

And I continue to get compliments on my 1911A1 and have the opportunity to inform the public at Walmart and gas stations (for free). I suppose that makes me A Second Amendment Advocacy Who**!

I put it in those terms because someone implied that giving it away for free was somehow wrong.

 

[Ford Truck]

Yes, I knew that already. People seem to think the LTCH means concealed carry only and that OC isn't even an option.

Several years ago in Angola, Indiana, I had to educate a pair of municipal police officers on that topic. They were prepared to cite me for not concealing my revolver. I walked away with an apology & no citation.

 

[2A_Tom]

Several years ago in Angola, Indiana, I had to educate a pair of municipal police officers on that topic. They were prepared to cite me for not concealing my revolver. I walked away with an apology & no citation.

Wow, that is great. I never got an apology. I had a few that would have shot me they were so mad that I knew the IC and they did not.

I believe it is an academy thing. They spend all of their time teaching and learning what is AGAINST the law.

With 2A advocates politely informing them and Pinner, they are becoming more familiar with what is within the law.

 

[jwamplerusa]

CBHausen or 2A_Tom

Do you guys carry a business card or something with the Indiana Code and Pinner references?

I think I've seen something like that in the past for open carriers, but I think it was generic, not Indiana specific.

 

[Robert Richardson]

Damn, can't believe this thread is still alive.

 

[Robert Richardson]

Just carry the way you want, geez.

 

[Dean C.]

20-year-old identified as suspect in Homewood Walmart shooting

Homewood Police have identified the suspect who was arrested following Monday’s shooting incident at the Walmart on Lakeshore Parkway.

www.cbs42.com

Well here is a documented OC gun grab that was sucesfull, I have no doubt the OC'er had no idea how his fantastic Uncle Mikes holster attached securely to his flimsy belt failed to retain his probably garbage rod pistol.

 

[2A_Tom]

Oo, Oo, Oo, first in!

I did not see in the article, OC (illegal in Illinois), Uncle Mikes, Flimsy belt.

Please link us to these obvious omissions in the article that you must have gleaned from other articles.

 

[CWMC]

The 2A does not give details on how to bear arms. But, I prefer to not trigger any neighborhood po po's.
Or send granny into a cardiac arrest.

 

[cedartop]

Oo, Oo, Oo, first in!

I did not see in the article, OC (illegal in Illinois), Uncle Mikes, Flimsy belt.

Please link us to these obvious omissions in the article that you must have gleaned from other articles.

Are we talking about the article Dean posted that took place in Alabama and was literally stated by the police that the victim was openly carrying a pistol?

 

[2A_Tom]

OK, missed Alabama, saw Homewood and assumed Illinois.

I also missed the word openly.

 

[Dean C.]

Oo, Oo, Oo, first in!

I did not see in the article, OC (illegal in Illinois), Uncle Mikes, Flimsy belt.

Please link us to these obvious omissions in the article that you must have gleaned from other articles.

HOMEWOOD, Ala. (WIAT) — Homewood Police have identified the suspect who was arrested following Monday’s shooting incident at the Walmart on Lakeshore Parkway.

Police said Navaeh-Ojore Timothy-Carl Payton, 20, of Vestavia Hills, opened fire inside the Walmart following an argument with a person inside the store.

Payton, who was taken into custody shortly after the incident, is charged with attempted murder, attempting to elude and disorderly conduct. He is being held in the Jefferson County Jail on $60,500 bond.

According to Sgt. John Carr of the Homewood Police Department, officers received a call around 12:20 p.m. Monday reporting a person openly carrying a gun in a holster at the Walmart.

Surveillance footage shows the suspect reportedly approaching the victim, where the the two got into an argument.

As the victim walked away, the suspect pulled out the victim’s gun and fired one shot toward him. No one was injured.

There is no evidence that either the victim or suspect knew one another. No one was injured.

The shooting is under investigation.



For the reading impaired , the assumption of flimsy belt, Uncle Mike's holster and garbage rod pistol are based on my own years of experience observing them in the wild. Yes I do in fact enjoy making fun of people who OC badly it's amusing.

 

[churchmouse]

HOMEWOOD, Ala. (WIAT) — Homewood Police have identified the suspect who was arrested following Monday’s shooting incident at the Walmart on Lakeshore Parkway.

Police said Navaeh-Ojore Timothy-Carl Payton, 20, of Vestavia Hills, opened fire inside the Walmart following an argument with a person inside the store.

Payton, who was taken into custody shortly after the incident, is charged with attempted murder, attempting to elude and disorderly conduct. He is being held in the Jefferson County Jail on $60,500 bond.

According to Sgt. John Carr of the Homewood Police Department, officers received a call around 12:20 p.m. Monday reporting a person openly carrying a gun in a holster at the Walmart.

Surveillance footage shows the suspect reportedly approaching the victim, where the the two got into an argument.

As the victim walked away, the suspect pulled out the victim’s gun and fired one shot toward him. No one was injured.

There is no evidence that either the victim or suspect knew one another. No one was injured.

The shooting is under investigation.



For the reading impaired , the assumption of flimsy belt, Uncle Mike's holster and garbage rod pistol are based on my own years of experience observing them in the wild. Yes I do in fact enjoy making fun of people who OC badly it's amusing.

It is somewhat upsetting to me when nimrods and dip s do stupid stuff that puts a spotlight on every one that carries in any fashion. Actually had a serious exchange with Mikey dumb butt when I saw his G**** stuck In his belt and close go rotating out of it. I asked that he secure his Tupperware before it hit the floor and discharged. He got pissy with me said it was safe and to back off. I said if that thing hits the floor and sends one my way you will re-evaluate the meaning of safe while looking at the inside of an ambulance. I can not tolerate stupidity and firearms. I just can’t.
End of story is he hiked his pants up and adjusted his carry. Mostly after seeing the grip of my 1911 in waste band secured in leather. All you could see was the grip. That’s my chosen method of carry.

Say what you will. I would do it again.
Carry as you want just be smart about it.

 

[areamike]

Wow! Marathon topic.
Personally, I conceal carry. However, the other day I was eating at a local restaurant and a couple came in. The guy was open-carry and, to be honest, I actually felt even more safe.

 

[crosse]

Throw my hat into the fray. I disagree with the article. I work in private security. We do overt and covert work. Applying a logic that walking in with a visible gun will deter criminals from their plan is a huge assumption. Most self defense scenarios are very fluid and your firearm is a large variable in these scenarios. Having a passive exposed oc does not give you options. Instead it pushes a narrative that the gun is a warning sign to poorly planned or uncommitted criminals. Huge wrong blanket assumptions