The Open Carry Argument

[wtburnette]

Throw my hat into the fray. I disagree with the article. I work in private security. We do overt and covert work. Applying a logic that walking in with a visible gun will deter criminals from their plan is a huge assumption. Most self defense scenarios are very fluid and your firearm is a large variable in these scenarios. Having a passive exposed oc does not give you options. Instead it pushes a narrative that the gun is a warning sign to poorly planned or uncommitted criminals. Huge wrong blanket assumptions

Except when Dr. John Lott interviewed criminals in prison, exactly what he found was that they almost always picked easier targets. When confronted with a "hard target" someone who the criminal knows is armed, they will seek easier prey. Based on that, I believe the deterrence factor is a thing.

I believe his research is in this paper:

https://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/LottMustard.pdf

 

[crosse]

Except when Dr. John Lott interviewed criminals in prison, exactly what he found was that they almost always picked easier targets. When confronted with a "hard target" someone who the criminal knows is armed, they will seek easier prey. Based on that, I believe the deterrence factor is a thing.

I believe his research is in this paper:

https://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/LottMustard.pdf

A person with an exposed gun is not a hard target. The person is the hard target not the tool they have.
As my buddy says and I'm paraphrasing, "I am able to murder most people with my bare hands if need be. A gun only makes it easier in certain scenarios for me."

 

[Cameramonkey]

Except when Dr. John Lott interviewed criminals in prison, exactly what he found was that they almost always picked easier targets. When confronted with a "hard target" someone who the criminal knows is armed, they will seek easier prey. Based on that, I believe the deterrence factor is a thing.

I believe his research is in this paper:

https://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/LottMustard.pdf

I guess the mope in red didnt get that memo.

On camera thief steals man's gun, points it at him and flees gas station

Caught on camera - a bold thief steals a gun from a man open-carrying at a gas station. The crime happened in January, but Detroit police has just released the video of the incident hoping to get the gun and the perpetrator - off the streets.

www.fox2detroit.com

 

[crosse]

I guess the mope in red didnt get that memo.

On camera thief steals man's gun, points it at him and flees gas station

Caught on camera - a bold thief steals a gun from a man open-carrying at a gas station. The crime happened in January, but Detroit police has just released the video of the incident hoping to get the gun and the perpetrator - off the streets.

www.fox2detroit.com

Yea people discount the foolishness or the balls on criminals. But veteran living criminals know a mark when they see one.

 

[wtburnette]

A person with an exposed gun is not a hard target. The person is the hard target not the tool they have.
As my buddy says and I'm paraphrasing, "I am able to murder most people with my bare hands if need be. A gun only makes it easier in certain scenarios for me."

Hand to hand expertise is fantastic, but does not provide any deterrence at all. It, by itself, won't help or hurt your chances of being targeted by a criminal (other than possibly how you carry yourself). You can disregard information that someone has researched if you wish and it doesn't cover every situation and every criminal. The best way to avoid being a victim of crime is to stay away from high crime areas and to pay attention and carry yourself with confidence. Even that doesn't work in every case, but it's all about doing what you can to reduce the chance of being a victim. Everything adds up, but nothing is foolproof. Unfortunately, carrying a gun doesn't always help, regardless of how you carry it. There are plenty of people who carried concealed who were victims of crime, as well as those who carried OC.

There are pluses and minuses to both methods of carry. It's up to you to decide which best fits your needs.

 

[2A_Tom]

JUST CARRY!

 

[cbhausen]

I guess the mope in red didnt get that memo.

On camera thief steals man's gun, points it at him and flees gas station

Caught on camera - a bold thief steals a gun from a man open-carrying at a gas station. The crime happened in January, but Detroit police has just released the video of the incident hoping to get the gun and the perpetrator - off the streets.

www.fox2detroit.com

Safariland ALS would’ve made that outcome different. As in, like, the gun would have been in his face not mine. At least until they ran like hell like the cowards these animals really are.

 

[gorge]

Hand to hand expertise is fantastic, but does not provide any deterrence at all. It, by itself, won't help or hurt your chances of being targeted by a criminal (other than possibly how you carry yourself). You can disregard information that someone has researched if you wish and it doesn't cover every situation and every criminal. The best way to avoid being a victim of crime is to stay away from high crime areas and to pay attention and carry yourself with confidence. Even that doesn't work in every case, but it's all about doing what you can to reduce the chance of being a victim. Everything adds up, but nothing is foolproof. Unfortunately, carrying a gun doesn't always help, regardless of how you carry it. There are plenty of people who carried concealed who were victims of crime, as well as those who carried OC.

There are pluses and minuses to both methods of carry. It's up to you to decide which best fits your needs.

Like this guy? "The element of surprise" really didn't help him one bit.

Gun Stolen in Armed Robbery. Concealed Carry Fail? - The Truth About Guns

&#9664Previous Post Next Post▶ “The victim was near Henry Clay and Coliseum around 9 p.m. when he was approached by two attackers who hit him with a gun,” uptownmessenger.com reports. “They then put him face down on the ground, frisked him, and stole the victim’s concealed weapon.” It’s a rare...

www.thetruthaboutguns.com

 

[Cameramonkey]

Like this guy? "The element of surprise" really didn't help him one bit.

Gun Stolen in Armed Robbery. Concealed Carry Fail? - The Truth About Guns

&#9664Previous Post Next Post▶ “The victim was near Henry Clay and Coliseum around 9 p.m. when he was approached by two attackers who hit him with a gun,” uptownmessenger.com reports. “They then put him face down on the ground, frisked him, and stole the victim’s concealed weapon.” It’s a rare...

www.thetruthaboutguns.com

And this guy would have survived if he just saw the tire coming and got out of the way. It doesnt always go your way and sometimes you get blindsided.

Frankly Im not sure why we have these discussions. The OCers are hard set that their exposed weapon is always a shield to ward off all attacks, and the disarms are red herrings. Nope. Wont happen to me.

But the CCers are always doomed because "they are just gonna find the gun anyway." And no matter how many CCers we can show that have the element of surprise and opportunity and strike in a moment of distraction, Nope. Doesnt count.

So how about you do you, and I do me, and what happens happens. You wear your magic talisman on your belt for the world to see, and I'll hedge my bets and add the element of surprise. Because if YOUR perp sees the gun, you're screwed. You likely cant outdraw somebody that has the drop on you when they know you are armed. Me? I still have that element of surprise and there is that chance card I still have in my hands to turn the tables.

Plus I dont have to worry about Karens accosting me either.

EDIT: this is just a long running version of the famous bud light commercial from the 80s.
"Tastes great!"
"Less filling!"
(neither will budge)

 

[wtburnette]

You take your element of surprise, which puts you behind the curve and I'll take my deterrence and we'll both JFC...

 

[2A_Tom]

CARRY ON!

NO OBC!!!

 

[Cameramonkey]

You take your element of surprise, which puts you behind the curve and I'll take my deterrence and we'll both JFC...

Yep. I'll CC and you can wear your talisman and we can both JFC.

 

[eldirector]

If OC allows me to carry more comfortably and more often, is that still a good thing?

If CC allows me to carry into more venues and therefor more often, is that still a good thing?

Will OC make one a target? Will CC not distinguish one from other non-carrying targets?

IMHO: arm yourself, get training, have some level of awareness, avoid higher-risk areas whenever possible, don't associate with criminals, carry in whatever way works for you.

 

[wtburnette]

Yep. I'll CC and you can wear your talisman and we can both JFC.

Oooookay. I train, so my gun is not a talisman in any way, shape, or form. The ones who strap it on, whether CC or OC, who don't get training, they are the ones who treat their gun as a talisman that wards off evil just by being carried. Saying someone who open carries is treating the gun as a talisman is not at all true (except in the cases I mentioned, which can be equally true for someone who conceals).

 

[Cameramonkey]

Oooookay. I train, so my gun is not a talisman in any way, shape, or form. The ones who strap it on, whether CC or OC, who don't get training, they are the ones who treat their gun as a talisman that wards off evil just by being carried. Saying someone who open carries is treating the gun as a talisman is not at all true (except in the cases I mentioned, which can be equally true for someone who conceals).

Lets look at the definition:
The meaning of TALISMAN is an object held to act as a charm to avert evil and bring good fortune.

I'd argue that anyone that displays it as a way to avoid threats is indeed relying on it as a talisman. It just so happens that unlike others, you can also use that talisman functionally when it doesn't work as expected. (unless they see it, DGAF, and draw down on you first, negating your ability to use it as you were trained. )

But you're still displaying something to avert evil, so yeah. Talisman fits. But good on you for also being proficient.

 

[COOPADUP]

There are some guns I own that frankly cannot be carried IWB comfortably. But I like to carry them so OWB is the best and only option.
There are ways to do this without telegraphing that you indeed have a firearm on your belt. To me this is the correct approach plus keeping in mind where you are planning to go and choosing what option would make the most sense without attracting attention to yourself.

 

[wtburnette]

Lets look at the definition:
The meaning of TALISMAN is an object held to act as a charm to avert evil and bring good fortune.

I'd argue that anyone that displays it as a way to avoid threats is indeed relying on it as a talisman. It just so happens that unlike others, you can also use that talisman functionally when it doesn't work as expected. (unless they see it, DGAF, and draw down on you first, negating your ability to use it as you were trained. )

But you're still displaying something to avert evil, so yeah. Talisman fits. But good on you for also being proficient.

To me talisman is when you are counting on the gun only to scare off the bad guys. I count on the deterrence factor and training when I OC. If one doesn't work, I fall back on the other. Nothing is 100%. People who carry CC get targeted all the time due to the fact that they look like an easy target. Sometimes people who carry OC get targeted because the criminal thinks they can get the gun away from them and/or are so drugged up they don't care. No one pays attention 100% of the time and no one method of carry is perfect in every circumstance. I carry when I feel it's appropriate and conceal when I don't. To be honest, I actually carry concealed more often than open, but feel open is perfectly fine in most circumstances. You do you and I'll do the same.

 

[2A_Tom]

CEDWF

 

[gorge]

And this guy would have survived if he just saw the tire coming and got out of the way. It doesnt always go your way and sometimes you get blindsided.

Frankly Im not sure why we have these discussions. The OCers are hard set that their exposed weapon is always a shield to ward off all attacks, and the disarms are red herrings. Nope. Wont happen to me.

But the CCers are always doomed because "they are just gonna find the gun anyway." And no matter how many CCers we can show that have the element of surprise and opportunity and strike in a moment of distraction, Nope. Doesnt count.

So how about you do you, and I do me, and what happens happens. You wear your magic talisman on your belt for the world to see, and I'll hedge my bets and add the element of surprise. Because if YOUR perp sees the gun, you're screwed. You likely cant outdraw somebody that has the drop on you when they know you are armed. Me? I still have that element of surprise and there is that chance card I still have in my hands to turn the tables.

Plus I dont have to worry about Karens accosting me either.

EDIT: this is just a long running version of the famous bud light commercial from the 80s.
"Tastes great!"
"Less filling!"
(neither will budge)

You miss the point. The point is, carrying a self defense tool, does not make own immune to attack. Going back to the article in the OP, OCers are targeted far less than those who are CCing. Once again, criminals rarely target hard targets and prefer to target soft targets (or appear soft). Why risk life and limb to rather than picking a softer target? The element of surprise is a myth. You state that you can't outdraw a drawn firearm. This is true for most people (including myself), but how are you going to outdraw from concealment with an attacker with a gun in his hand? Do you not see the logical fallacy here?

 

[actaeon277]

I CC'd today.

I felt dirty.

Glad I'm back to OC tomorrow.