The Open Carry Argument

[dburkhead]

It's still inductive, because the premise is based on an observation or survey. "Studies show that crimials avoid people who was armed" does not mean the next one will.

As the saying goes "the race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong" but that's the way to bet.

Nobody has claimed that the deterrence factor is a panacea, that it will always work all the time on every possible criminal. Therefore the whole "does not mean the next one will" is a red herring.

It doesn't guarantee that the next one will but one doesn't have to have a guarantee to have the odds improved.

In deductive reasoning, true premises guarantee a true conclusion.

It should be noted that deductive reasoning can never generate "new" truths, therefore all genuine experimentation or empirical research will of necessity involve elements of inductive reasoning.

Basically the concusion of a deductive argument for open carry will be "Criminals will not attack a person who is armed."

We know that's not true.

Since nobody has made this argument, it is again a red herring.

 

[ModernGunner]

Mainsail, the original author of that article, is contradictory, naive, foolhardy, never been in a lethal or potentially lethal confrontation, has little idea what he's talking about, and probably shouldn't be carrying a weapon OC OR CC.

There simply are ZERO advantages to carrying OC, SOME disadvantages (greater or lesser depending on the individual), and PROBABLY should NOT be done by MOST civilians.

And btw, I'm IN FAVOR of OC or CC, preferring to leave that choice up to the individual.

If you're a decent, law-abiding citizen with a LTCH, fine with me if you choose to open carry, but you are giving yourself NO advantage and burdening yourself with a couple disadvantages.

Ever notice MOST uniformed LEO's, who obviously OC while on the job, CC when off duty? Ever wonder why that is?

I submit that anyone who TRULY believes that OC'ing is some "threat deterring advantage" should probably not be carrying a weapon in the first place, and their LTCH should probably be revoked as they have the wrong mindset to carry a gun, even if they do have the 2nd Amendment right to do so.

Not everyone who CAN legally carry a gun should do so. The author of that article made that obvious.

Please feel free, anyone who is "pro-OC, anti-CC" to dissent. Bring whatever points you like to the table, and I'll be happy to debate them, point by point.

 

[Joe Williams]

Mainsail, the original author of that article, is contradictory, naive, foolhardy, never been in a lethal or potentially lethal confrontation, has little idea what he's talking about, and probably shouldn't be carrying a weapon OC OR CC.

There simply are ZERO advantages to carrying OC, SOME disadvantages (greater or lesser depending on the individual), and PROBABLY should NOT be done by MOST civilians.

And btw, I'm IN FAVOR of OC or CC, preferring to leave that choice up to the individual.

If you're a decent, law-abiding citizen with a LTCH, fine with me if you choose to open carry, but you are giving yourself NO advantage and burdening yourself with a couple disadvantages.

Ever notice MOST uniformed LEO's, who obviously OC while on the job, CC when off duty? Ever wonder why that is?

I submit that anyone who TRULY believes that OC'ing is some "threat deterring advantage" should probably not be carrying a weapon in the first place, and their LTCH should probably be revoked as they have the wrong mindset to carry a gun, even if they do have the 2nd Amendment right to do so.

Not everyone who CAN legally carry a gun should do so. The author of that article made that obvious.

Please feel free, anyone who is "pro-OC, anti-CC" to dissent. Bring whatever points you like to the table, and I'll be happy to debate them, point by point.

Zero advantages? None? Are you just trolling, or are you "special" in some way if you cannot see any advantage to OC?

You say you are fine with citizens OC'ing (thanks for that gracious permission, btw ) but that they aren't fit to carry a gun at all if they do so?

Seeing as how police officers are civilians also, do you include them in the group that shouldn't be OC'ing, or do they suddenly gain advantage to doing so from the uniform? British cops CC, so American cops certainly could, if there are NO advantages to OC.

You say the author is contradictory. Please point out his contradictions in the article.

Further, please prove your statement of fact that OC provides no deterrent effect.

Please provide the reasoning behind your statement of fact that if someone doesn't share your thoughts on how to carry, they are probably unfit to carry a gun at all, and should have their LTCH revoked.

Finally, tell us when and how you developed your hatred and contempt for the Constitution and American citizens. I'm quite curious about that last, especially.

BTW, your apparent contention that anyone here is "anti-CC" is fallacious. The only people who seem to think they have the right to tell others how to carry are folks, like you, who are anti-OC.

 

[kingnereli]

Mainsail, the original author of that article, is contradictory, naive, foolhardy, never been in a lethal or potentially lethal confrontation, has little idea what he's talking about, and probably shouldn't be carrying a weapon OC OR CC.

There simply are ZERO advantages to carrying OC, SOME disadvantages (greater or lesser depending on the individual), and PROBABLY should NOT be done by MOST civilians.

And btw, I'm IN FAVOR of OC or CC, preferring to leave that choice up to the individual.

If you're a decent, law-abiding citizen with a LTCH, fine with me if you choose to open carry, but you are giving yourself NO advantage and burdening yourself with a couple disadvantages.

Ever notice MOST uniformed LEO's, who obviously OC while on the job, CC when off duty? Ever wonder why that is?

I submit that anyone who TRULY believes that OC'ing is some "threat deterring advantage" should probably not be carrying a weapon in the first place, and their LTCH should probably be revoked as they have the wrong mindset to carry a gun, even if they do have the 2nd Amendment right to do so.

Not everyone who CAN legally carry a gun should do so. The author of that article made that obvious.

Please feel free, anyone who is "pro-OC, anti-CC" to dissent. Bring whatever points you like to the table, and I'll be happy to debate them, point by point.

The various advantages to OC have been explained in detail in numerous threads here. The search function is your friend. Also, if you are going to make sweep, broad based statements it wise to actually back up those statements with evidence or logical argument rather then an open challenge. I think you will notice that people will take you more seriously here if you don't set off their troll alarms.

 

[ATM]

Hah! If it's all wrong why didn't you bring any actual debate of any of the points presented?

Your opinion may be strong but that alone lends nothing rational to counter the pro-OC argument. Emotions have no bearing here except on your personal choice. Do not bring emotion to the mindset or tactics part of the discussion.

Neither am I anti-CC.
In my defense of OC, I do not go on the offensive against concealment - even with a disclaimer of "...but I respect your choice."

Debate welcomed.

 

[38special]

The various advantages to OC have been explained in detail in numerous threads here. The search function is your friend. Also, if you are going to make sweep, broad based statements it wise to actually back up those statements with evidence or logical argument rather then an open challenge. I think you will notice that people will take you more seriously here if you don't set off their troll alarms.

Looks like he's trying to make a splash.

He just opened a dead thread to argue that it's a good idea to wear CCW badges

 

[Blue Tile Spook]

Mainsail, the original author of that article, is contradictory, naive, foolhardy, never been in a lethal or potentially lethal confrontation, has little idea what he's talking about, and probably shouldn't be carrying a weapon OC OR CC.

There simply are ZERO advantages to carrying OC, SOME disadvantages (greater or lesser depending on the individual), and PROBABLY should NOT be done by MOST civilians.

And btw, I'm IN FAVOR of OC or CC, preferring to leave that choice up to the individual.

If you're a decent, law-abiding citizen with a LTCH, fine with me if you choose to open carry, but you are giving yourself NO advantage and burdening yourself with a couple disadvantages.

Ever notice MOST uniformed LEO's, who obviously OC while on the job, CC when off duty? Ever wonder why that is?

I submit that anyone who TRULY believes that OC'ing is some "threat deterring advantage" should probably not be carrying a weapon in the first place, and their LTCH should probably be revoked as they have the wrong mindset to carry a gun, even if they do have the 2nd Amendment right to do so.

Not everyone who CAN legally carry a gun should do so. The author of that article made that obvious.

Please feel free, anyone who is "pro-OC, anti-CC" to dissent. Bring whatever points you like to the table, and I'll be happy to debate them, point by point.

Wow! That is the second "shotgun" post that I have read from you tonight and I haven't been through all the new threads on my list yet.

Looking forward to your introduction thread. It ought to be interesting.

 

[ModernGunner]

Actually, I DID post an at-length response to Mainsail's article. Unfortunately for me, this forum logged me out before I was able to post a full point-by-point response. That's on me, as I'm new to the forum, but NOT new to carrying a weapon, having done so virtually daily since 1975.

However, if someone is going to throw at me that I didn't (logging out or otherwise) post a point-by-point debate, I WILL point out that if anyone disagreed THEY were welcome to debate.

No one has, rather they're bashing ME for not making a point-by-point, yet they do not incumber themselves with the same requisites. Sorry, that's simply hypocritical.

And before you throw out accusations, .38 Special, make sure you're aware of your position. I did NOT, in ANY thread, ANYWHERE on this forum or any other, EVER, make a post "to argue that it's a good idea to wear CCW badges".

If that was a "dead thread", I was unaware of it, as it was simply linked in the thread I was responding to, and as the link was there, I responded to that link, wanting to stay on the topic and not hijack another.

And NO, I did NOT say "anyone who carries OC should not carry a gun and have their LTCH revoked". Again, a simple case of SOME people not reading what was written.

What I DID say was that anyone who actually believes that OC'ing provides some "strong deterrent effect" is not only incorrect, but IMO deluded to the point that one must question their judgment in carrying a gun in the first place, and perhaps should have their being issued a LTCH reviewed.

Anyone here think that carrying OC makes them impervious to attack, or that "no bad guy would mess with me because they can see I'm carrying a gun!"

Really? ANYONE here believe that? Someone here thinks that gun on their hip puts an 'S' on their chest? Civilian? LEO? 'Cause that's one deluded individual there, living in La-La Land. And if that's the case, their judgment is greatly in doubt. And THOSE people should be evaluated as to whether they have the appropriate mindset to carry a gun, and be licensed to do so.

I'll get to Mainsail's "article", I promise. In the meantime, if anyone HERE would like to debate the "advantages" to OC, especially anyone staunchly anti-CC (as stated, I'm in favor of the individual's choice), I'll be happy to do so, point-by-point.

And to Joe Williams, careful with that "hatred for the Constitution and American citizen" b.s. I happened to have taken the oath to uphold the Constitution more than once, friend. And I AM an American Citizen. You?

 

[38special]

And before you throw out accusations, .38 Special, make sure you're aware of your position. I did NOT, in ANY thread, ANYWHERE on this forum or any other, EVER, make a post "to argue that it's a good idea to wear CCW badges".

I stand corrected. I shouldn't have worded it that way. I meant that you were arguing that it's reasonable, and I don't believe it is. In fact, IMO, if someone is wearing a CCW badge I'm of the mindset that perhaps they are carrying for the wrong reason and may well have a reason to have their license reviewed.

Anyone here think that carrying OC makes them impervious to attack, or that "no bad guy would mess with me because they can see I'm carrying a gun!"

This is kind of a red herring, as I've seen no one make the argument that OC makes you impervious to attack.

Someone here thinks that gun on their hip puts an 'S' on their chest?

Again, I've seen nobody make this argument.

 

[ATM]

Go back and read the past debates.

ETA: Just a couple to get you started:

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/carry_issues_and_self_defense/11237-why_i_open_carry.html

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...lf_defense/37307-common_oc_cc_threadjack.html


If you want to rehash or attempt some new line of debate, you will need to start since nothing you've posted so far in any way attempts to refute any of the points in this threads original essay defending OC.

I'd like to say this will be interesting but I have my doubts.

 

[youngda9]

More butter please

 

[Blue Tile Spook]

Actually, I DID post an at-length response to Mainsail's article. Unfortunately for me, this forum logged me out before I was able to post a full point-by-point response. That's on me, as I'm new to the forum, but NOT new to carrying a weapon, having done so virtually daily since 1975.

However, if someone is going to throw at me that I didn't (logging out or otherwise) post a point-by-point debate, I WILL point out that if anyone disagreed THEY were welcome to debate.

No one has, rather they're bashing ME for not making a point-by-point, yet they do not incumber themselves with the same requisites. Sorry, that's simply hypocritical.

And before you throw out accusations, .38 Special, make sure you're aware of your position. I did NOT, in ANY thread, ANYWHERE on this forum or any other, EVER, make a post "to argue that it's a good idea to wear CCW badges".

If that was a "dead thread", I was unaware of it, as it was simply linked in the thread I was responding to, and as the link was there, I responded to that link, wanting to stay on the topic and not hijack another.

And NO, I did NOT say "anyone who carries OC should not carry a gun and have their LTCH revoked". Again, a simple case of SOME people not reading what was written.

What I DID say was that anyone who actually believes that OC'ing provides some "strong deterrent effect" is not only incorrect, but IMO deluded to the point that one must question their judgment in carrying a gun in the first place, and perhaps should have their being issued a LTCH reviewed.

Anyone here think that carrying OC makes them impervious to attack, or that "no bad guy would mess with me because they can see I'm carrying a gun!"

Really? ANYONE here believe that? Someone here thinks that gun on their hip puts an 'S' on their chest? Civilian? LEO? 'Cause that's one deluded individual there, living in La-La Land. And if that's the case, their judgment is greatly in doubt. And THOSE people should be evaluated as to whether they have the appropriate mindset to carry a gun, and be licensed to do so.

I'll get to Mainsail's "article", I promise. In the meantime, if anyone HERE would like to debate the "advantages" to OC, especially anyone staunchly anti-CC (as stated, I'm in favor of the individual's choice), I'll be happy to do so, point-by-point.

And to Joe Williams, careful with that "hatred for the Constitution and American citizen" b.s. I happened to have taken the oath to uphold the Constitution more than once, friend. And I AM an American Citizen. You?

You've got it backwards. When you read the starter threads provided to you I think you'll find that the OC'ers on INGO do not care how a person carries - OC or CC. Usually it is a CC'er saying "You're doing it wrong. There is little or no reason to OC."

 

[Joe Williams]

snip
And to Joe Williams, careful with that "hatred for the Constitution and American citizen" b.s. I happened to have taken the oath to uphold the Constitution more than once, friend. And I AM an American Citizen. You?

Yeah, I'm a citizen. Your implication otherwise is merely another display of your obviously incredible talent for spouting ignorance and nonsense about things you know crap about. And I meant it when I took my oaths. I read exactly what you wrote, and I meant exactly what I said. If you have a problem with that, imagine my concern.

Your post was garbage, your attitude that some people should have their LTCH revoked if they don't happen to agree with your point of view outrageous. People like you who claim that OC'ers are deluded to the point of being unfit to carry weapons are worse than the Brady Bunch, just a bunch of know it all gum flappers who damage the cause of armed citizens everywhere. Go find yourself an audience of people who have never seen a gun. Perhaps you can impress them with your CCW badge and your "expertise."

 

[jsgolfman]

^^^This

 

[finity]

Well, hello there ModernGunner & .

I like a good debate as much as the next person but to jump in with both feet in the manner you have done so isn't the best way to get a warm welcome.

Excuse me for saying so but you are coming across as (& I NEVER use this word) a troll. Hopefully that's not the way you intended it.

Showing the disdain that you do for some of the members here (that you really don't "know" very well) & calling out a a general challenge to debate while offering no points to debate will, at best, get you ignored.

And the last thing, could you PLEASE stop the "they should not be allowed to own a gun" talk just because someone doesn't agree with you. That really gets old.

Good luck.

 

[38special]

Well, hello there ModernGunner & .

I like a good debate as much as the next person but to jump in with both feet in the manner you have done so isn't the best way to get a warm welcome.

Excuse me for saying so but you are coming across as (& I NEVER use this word) a troll. Hopefully that's not the way you intended it.

Showing the disdain that you do for some of the members here (that you really don't "know" very well) & calling out a a general challenge to debate while offering no points to debate will, at best, get you ignored.

And the last thing, could you PLEASE stop the "they should not be allowed to own a gun" talk just because someone doesn't agree with you. That really gets old.

Good luck.

Well put. Articulated a with a little less color than I would use

 

[Manan]

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[cmcate]

I prefer to conceal carry for my own safety. Everyone's heard some variation of a story where a guy open carried and got mugged unexpectantly. Not a good situation

 

[jsgolfman]

No, everyone hasn't.

 

[rhino]

The best part of topics like this is that they streamline my decision-making process for additions to my IGNORE list. Now I just need to find a way to circumvent the quoting!