Common OC/CC threadjack

The #1 community for Gun Owners in Indiana

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • ATM

    will argue for sammiches.
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    30   0   0
    Jul 29, 2008
    21,019
    83
    Crawfordsville
    Just thought I would start a new, on-topic discussion for one of the most overused but rarely supported ideas to ever jack a carry thread. Since very few will bring up an older thread or start their own, here it is. Some variant of this idea is frequently thrown into many threads by many folks:

    If you OC, you are giving up the element of surprise and making yourself the bad guy's first target.

    It is usually dismissed by those who have read past debates with a statement and a question.

    Surpise benefits the attacker; deterrence the defender.
    And please cite examples of common people being targeted for OC.

    ...yet it keeps coming back.

    I have concluded (in the absence of much defense) that the common hypothetical or fantasy scenario must play out like the movies. The crime happens to someone else or at the register in a store while the CCer is blending in with the crowd. After the OCers are all shot or disarmed, the CCer then gets to pull his gun from concealment while the bad guy is busy with his crime and saves the day (usually from behind and unnoticed.) Hopefully this happens without cocking the hammer several times.:):

    Does the thought of you being the bad guy's victim ever intrude on the above hypothetical? Would that thought make you wish they had known you were armed and picked an easier target? Would you be weighing that envisioned element of surprise against having to now draw from concealment when they already have you covered?

    I am just curious why this remains such a popular idea unless what I will call the "hidden hero" scenario sounds so personally rewarding that it compels us to discount a reasonable means of avoiding violence or reacting to it with the fastest possible presentation.

    I understand that there are many other reasons for both choices. This one just pops up a lot.

    Disclaimer: I support the rights and decisions of each individual to carry as they see fit. This discussion should only be about the reasons or thoughts that lead to those choices and possibly why we need to inject our reasons in inappropriate threads.;) Carry on.:yesway:

    Your civility is appreciated.:ingo:
     

    Smitty506th

    Sharpshooter
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Sep 22, 2008
    451
    16
    I want to start out by saying that I CC (with a few short exceptions). I am also perturbed by the thread jacking in this area of concern. I would agree with your scenario. If you are talking about someone with a plan then I do not think that an armed person (That is OC'ing) would stop their plan or do anything but make you a primary target for them to start with. I could see how this might be (might) enough to stop they guy behind you in line that lost his job and is going to stick up the gas station or the like but when a person wants to commit a crime they may already be committed. Surprise is what they want. I would wager that most of them ( criminals ) want to use the element of surprise and are hoping that a gun ( or some other weapon ) will scare people into complying with whatever they want. So why not use the element of surprise in your favor. Yet another downside to OC'ing is exposing your firearm for all to see. Putting this out there shows them that you have at least one weapon and someone might think that there are more in your home. This could possibly provoke a break-in and a search for your "other" guns.

    In the previously posted scenario (by ATM) I agree. The decision to react with a drawn weapon is yours to make when you are CC'ing. This decision is still there if you are OC'ing you will just have less time to react. The criminal may single you out by separating you, shooting you or just taking your weapon at gunpoint. Neither sound good to me. If you are CC'ing and no one is (in your opinion) in mortal danger then you can choose to keep it to your self and remain a good witness. Or you may draw your weapon and take the criminal by surprise. Even if they are covering you they do not SEE the weapon and have most likely assed you as a non-threat and moved on to commit further crimes. I wonder how many LEO's OC in their off time? (Not jacking your thread just wondering if it could be included in future responses).

    I think that OC'ing lets people know its legal and shows that is can be done safely. I would not like a world without OC'ing and would never be in favor of mandated CC only as it would be a restriction.

    Good Post ATM
     

    ATM

    will argue for sammiches.
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    30   0   0
    Jul 29, 2008
    21,019
    83
    Crawfordsville
    ...and have most likely assed you as a non-threat...

    I hate it when they ass me.:D


    If the bad guy has a plan to use the element of surprise doesn't he have the same choice to wait until or choose his target based upon variables being favorable to his success? If crime data or testimony supported the idea that criminals do not change their original plan and went about targeting the armed citizen first in encounters, I would likely change my mind.

    If they noticed the OCer and still chose to victimize them, they are in the minority of criminals. They are putting their life on the line much more than the common criminal who is a coward and looking for the weaker mark. While rare, it is very likely one or both of us is going to be shot and quickly. I could then only rely on my training and practice. My hope is for the more common variety of criminal.

    Thanks for your reply, Smitty. I will consider your other points as well.:cheers:
     

    jsharmon7

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    119   0   0
    Nov 24, 2008
    7,822
    113
    Freedonia
    Does the thought of you being the bad guy's victim ever intrude on the above hypothetical? Would that thought make you wish they had known you were armed and picked an easier target? Would you be weighing that envisioned element of surprise against having to now draw from concealment when they already have you covered?

    Your civility is appreciated.:ingo:

    If the BG already has you covered then your options are to comply with their demands or hope they miss you as you're drawing your weapon to fire. At this point I don't see how having to draw from concealment is that big of a disadvantage as you're already in a pretty bad spot. In fact, maybe it would be a slight advantage as you reach for your "wallet."

    I do not OC personally but I can understand the concept of "target hardening" with a visible weapon. Actually I was at Walmart the other night and saw a gentleman with a Kimber on his hip and my first thought was that if I were a thief I would probably find someone else to prey on after seeing that gun strapped to his hip.

    Again, I CC 95% of the time but I feel that my situational awareness is elevated enough that I should see trouble developing and be thinking ahead. I know this isn't a guarantee but for my needs I think it serves me the best. CC also does wonders for those "don't ask, don't tell" situations where OC may draw attention.
     
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Jul 3, 2008
    3,619
    63
    central indiana
    I am against laws that restrict OC, but i am a big supporter of CC for the common good..
    studies such as John Lott''s "more guns , less crime" have shown that when people OC the criminal may simple change targets to a less armed one...
    but when a population has CC persons in it the criminal does not know who might be armed.. thus he has to decide to take a greater risk...


    plus when you CC you don't get asked to leave places..
     

    Citizen 5

    Plinker
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    May 21, 2009
    43
    8
    Warsaw
    when a population has CC persons in it the criminal does not know who might be armed..

    Element of surprise aside, I think this is the most important reason for CCing. You want the BG to never know who might bite back--hopefully discouraging his actions before he even starts.

    In WWII, the allies disigned the low cost FP-45 to be dropped over occupied territory. "The plan was to drop the weapon in such great quantities that occupying forces could never capture or recover all the weapons. It was hoped that the thought of thousands of these unrecovered weapons potentially in the hands of the citizens of occupied countries would have a deleterious effect on enemy morale." (source)

    If enough everyday members of the public carry concealed, it takes the risk/benefit ration WAY up. The thought that even a little old lady might be able to kill you if you try to hurt her (let alone bigger, stronger members of the society) would certainly make a criminal who is in it for personal gain think twice. (Or thrice.)

    However, I don't think that people should exclusively conceal. If done enough (and properly), OC will slowly acclimate a nervous public to the presence of everyday people carrying firearms, (hopefully) make new carry converts, and remind BGs (criminals and goverment alike) that we mean business in protecting ourselves, our families, our property, and our freedom.

    As to whether it's better from a "tactial" standpoint to OC or CC, I think that's entirely up to you and especially what sort of situations you're in.

    Personally, I think you should weigh your options and circumstances, decide for yourself, and above all: stop making such a big deal over it. :)

    My two cents. :twocents:
     

    Dryden

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    May 5, 2009
    2,589
    36
    N.E. Indianapolis
    My argument for CC is that when I pocket carry, I can have my hand on my S&W 642.... gripped, and ready (don't worry, my Galco pocket holster prevents my finger from entering the trigger guard.;)). I usually walk around with my hands in my pockets anyway, so I feel like I'm a half step ahead of open-carry.
    I could also be kidding myself... but, hey, I'm still bringing a gun to the gunfight.
     

    ATM

    will argue for sammiches.
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    30   0   0
    Jul 29, 2008
    21,019
    83
    Crawfordsville
    I'm in a fair state of open agreement with several of these points (and admit to pulling my shirt tail over if I need to visit a known don't ask don't tell place;))

    Then again, I'm not against CC. :popcorn:
     

    jeremy

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    7   0   0
    Feb 18, 2008
    16,482
    36
    Fiddler's Green
    Personally I don't f*cking care how anyone actually carries. I just wish people would stop with the if you do it that way you will die BS.

    If I wanted to hear BS I would listen to the government...
     

    chasekerion4

    Sharpshooter
    Rating - 100%
    14   0   0
    Criminals = out of sight, out of mind.

    Criminals generally aren't thinking clearly to begin with. I just can't imagine a scenario where one thinks "I wonder how many people in this gas station are CC'ing"

    I mean, you know, if the majority of the population were to CC and the criminal had to make a riskier choice.

    If they see it, they KNOW you're armed. They now KNOW they have a big decision to make. Now they must think "clearly"....

    It's like car locks and house locks. Deterrence isn't the same as prevention. I'd venture to guess my cars' door handles have been lifted in parking lots before from a thug "just checking" for easy targets. But my windows have never been shattered. (disclaimer:this is just an example; I know many people's cars have been broken into).

    The cameras at the intersections... It's to deter you from not blowing through them.

    The 142 camera bubbles in the ceilings in Wal-Mart. Deterrence.

    There really is no debate to this. Carry however you want; just carry.

    But I'd sure feel safer in the bank if the guy behind me had a gun holstered on his hip. I would KNOW I've got a friend/assistance should SHTF.
     

    Citizen 5

    Plinker
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    May 21, 2009
    43
    8
    Warsaw
    Criminals generally aren't thinking clearly to begin with. I just can't imagine a scenario where one thinks "I wonder how many people in this gas station are CC'ing"

    That is true. I guess I was speaking more of the benefit of getting LOTS of people to CC. For example, 10% (or so I've heard) of IN residents hold LTCHs, and even if only 10% of the population actually carried, we'd hear so many more stories of robberies/rapes/murders being foiled by citizens that I can't imagine it being ignored by criminals.

    If a thug had just heard of five or six other thugs getting dropped by their would-be victims in the last month, he very well might stop and think about people at the gas station being armed.
     

    Ness2k

    Marksman
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Dec 26, 2008
    265
    16
    China ^_^
    I OC because I can't CC in the summer. I absolutely will not change my dress so I can uncomfortably carry a fullsize XDm concealed. It's fitted shorts and tight shirts for me.

    I look the part (military haircut, and in decent shape, "tacticool" holster), and many people ask me if I'm LEO. If you look and dress appropriately for OC, no one will ever question you, ask you to leave, and the police will disregard you. This is just in my experience.

    My main observation - people go out of their way to be nice to the guy with the gun. No one has ever been rude, which is all to common nowadays, or ever tried to start a fight. I get primo customer service wherever I go, without advertising. I'm always a kind person, but it's very nice to have the proper respect and courtesy I give others returned.

    As long as I keep getting the respect every common man deserves, I'll continue to OC. I'm not worried about being a target any more than I am when I have my weapon concealed. In the event of a bad guy, I guess we will see who has the best shot.
     

    Michiana

    Master
    Emeritus
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    May 3, 2008
    1,712
    36
    Granger
    Is it really worth discussing like we do?

    One question nobody seems to ever ask is who on this forum has ever encountered a situation where they felt threatened enough to draw their gun. I would guess you have a better chance of getting killed falling down the stairs at home than shot by a bad guy while out and about so in my opinion OC or CC is a moot issue in peoples lives. I believe it is more "hey look at me" or I don't want to be conspicuous than what is best in case of dealing with a robber. :twocents:
     

    esrice

    Certified Regular Guy
    Rating - 100%
    20   0   0
    Jan 16, 2008
    24,095
    48
    Indy
    I know a gentleman who once told how he was inside a local auto parts store when multiple armed men came inside to rob the place. This gentleman was actually not carrying at all (he had JUST left the range and left his Glock in the truck. . . .) at the time. For the sake of this thread, let's assume he was carrying in one of two ways:

    1) he was carrying concealed.

    2) he was carrying openly.

    For option #1, it would've been a tense situation, as he would have to choose his timing precisely. But, unless they gave him a pat-down, he would have the element of surprise on his side. He could choose to act immediately or to wait for a better opportunity.

    For option #2, I am curious what would've transpired at that point. The "deterrence" argument would be moot in this case, as they gunmen entered without seeing ANY customers first. The BGs rush in and round up all the customers. I'm sure at some point one of them would've noticed. Now, they might not have shot him on the spot, but I'm willing to bet they would've certainly disarmed him immediately. And that would leave him limited options-- like having to shoot sooner than he might've if he was carrying concealed.

    I dunno. It was just one incident (which didn't even involve a gun in reality), but one I ponder when the OC vs. CC debate comes up.
     

    roscott

    Master
    Rating - 97.5%
    39   1   0
    Mar 1, 2009
    1,652
    83
    A I mentioned in another thread, I would consider OCing somewhat like wearing a Marine Corp Scout Sniper or a Navy SEAL T-shirt.
    It says very loudly "Don't mess."
    But, you would be a very likely target for a shooter intent on killing people.
     
    Top Bottom