The Insane "Social Justice" Thread pt IV

[IndyDave1776]

Can you see what im getting at? Im not trying to be argumentative. A head dress has serious meaning to Native Americans. So i try to put myself in their shoes. How would I feel if my grandfather earned that right to wear it and some guy at a baseball game with zero idea of its meaning and zero respect of how it was earned used it as a prop.

I am going to recommend starting a thread to explain it. You are right that few would understand it. My guess is that it would be in interesting topic and that many among us including Yours Truly would gain from exploring it.

 

[kickbacked]

Hey kick-

At first I was perturbed at your response to this, but I had some time to think k about it (and a little whiskey to blur it a little...)

So... part of me is verklempt (sp?) at your staunch “shouldn’t paint their face anyway” comment, but I think I know where you’re going with it: Real, strong men shouldn’t resort to painting their face for a sportsball game as it’s a childish way to express yourself. (My interpretation at least, and I somewhat agree that true masculinity and stoicism is a lost art.)

However, allow me to counter a little bit on two fronts:

1. Freedom - They have the ability to do so and without consternation on our end as it falls under the “if it doesn’t affect/hurt us, then why do we care” spectrum;

2. Warrior ethos - This is one that just came to me: One thing to consider now that many folks use sports as their “tribe” and don war paint as their “going into battle” moment. While I ultimately realize that this is weak in grand comparison, this is where we’re at as a society. So many men haven’t had to fight for something that sportsball has replaced battle in some cases.

Ultimately, I think it’s one of those things that is a fun tradition in sports and that it allows people to let go a little bit and have a blast. It may not be “mature,” but it’s part of the party atmosphere surrounding professional sports these days.

I appreciate your response. I dont think it has to do with toughness or being strong. I love sports, I watch them nightly while sitting on here. Its in no way illegal and im probably wrong to judge. To quote money ball, “We’re all told at some point that we can no longer play the children’s game. Some of us are told at 18, some of us are told at 40. But we’re all told.” Im not going to die on the hill of who shouldn't wear face paint. IMO its for the kids, just like trick or treating is for kids. Im not tough or a real man because I dont go trick or treating. Its just seems childish to me.

 

[maxwelhse]

Im not tough or a real man because I dont go trick or treating. Its just seems childish to me.

Of course not... Tough guys just take what they want!



Getting a bit too serious in here.

I probably shouldn't be reading the pol forum...

 

[IndyDave1776]

Of course not... Tough guys just take what they want!

View attachment 133631

Getting a bit too serious in here.

I probably shouldn't be reading the pol forum...

The rabbit jacks the kid's cookie and then runs like the kid is going to chase him?

 

[maxwelhse]

The rabbit jacks the kid's cookie and then runs like the kid is going to chase him?

And the kid just DGAF. Great GIF if I ever saw one.

 

[Hatin Since 87]

Can you see what im getting at? Im not trying to be argumentative. A head dress has serious meaning to Native Americans. So i try to put myself in their shoes. How would I feel if my grandfather earned that right to wear it and some guy at a baseball game with zero idea of its meaning and zero respect of how it was earned used it as a prop.

I would be glad that something my grandfather earned the right to do is still having an impact on society today. People idolized the position my grandfather was in so much that they now dress like him as a symbol of their teams strength. People have different opinions, that’s fine, but unless someone is deliberately wearing it as an insulting image, why be insulted or offended? Why has society become so judge mental that painting your face to go to a game has now become an issue for some? Let them have a good time.

 

[Hatin Since 87]

Of course not... Tough guys just take what they want!

View attachment 133631

Getting a bit too serious in here.

I probably shouldn't be reading the pol forum...

 

[MCgrease08]

Because apparently this got missed when I posted it a few pages back.

 

[jamil]

Now do the gospel according to SUSY vs String Theory

Sure. String Theory is an theory that may be true or may be false, or maybe it's partly true, partly false. Not enough is testable at this point so it would look a lot like faith. It's unfalsifiable at this point.

It is not an unknowable truth, I know it already. But in the sense you mean, I shall 'know' the truth in 30 yrs +- 10

But you don't KNOW it. You BELIEVE it. There is a difference. If something is testable that means it's falsifiable. You can't test the concept of God. Therefore it is unknowable outside of faith. And that's fine. I'm perfectly content to accept that one can believe something based on faith. I'm not going to disparage you for believing in God. Just return the favor and don't assume things about people who disagree with you on that.

 

[jamil]

And I'm just pointing out, having been inside it for many years, that science at the edges looks a lot like any other faith when viewed from the outside

I think I've answered this above, but, just to further the point, let me point out that the view from outside is not always representative of the view from inside. Do you test things? If they're not falsifiable, what then? All tests of god are non-falsifiable.

The nice thing about metaphysics is that you can acknowledge the truth in that and still believe what you believe.

 

[jamil]

Can you see what im getting at? Im not trying to be argumentative. A head dress has serious meaning to Native Americans. So i try to put myself in their shoes. How would I feel if my grandfather earned that right to wear it and some guy at a baseball game with zero idea of its meaning and zero respect of how it was earned used it as a prop.

Well, sure. But offense is generally taken more than given. Sometimes offense is genuine. But you're kinda making this akin to something like stolen valor. If I am in that situation, and I see some guy at a baseball game with zero idea of it's meaning, wearing a prop like 1000 other fans, why should I be upset? The person wearing it isn't trying to be a fraud. They're not stealing my valor. They're using it in a form of pop culture. They're wearing a prop, for **** sake. People need to calm down about this. This just smells a lot like you being offended on other people's behalf. I dunno. Maybe look at the other side of it too.

Were you this offended when Elizabeth Warren tried to claim membership in a tribe? Because I think if I were a native american I could be legitimately, justifiably offended by that. Or, I dunno. Maybe it would only have offended you if she went to a baseball game and put on a cheaply made in China head dress prop bought at the ball park swag shop for $50.

 

[Leadeye]

I've never attended a sporting event that my kids didn't participate in and if I'm lucky, I never will. Don't even watch it TV. Fine for other folks, just not for me. The face painting, costumes, betting and crazy behavior over sports are all lost on me.

 

[KLB]

People being offended by a sports team name or what people wear to a game, the whole topic is stupid. Talk about first world problems.

When is Notre dame changing their team name? Surely that is disparaging to Irish.

 

[jamil]

I appreciate your response. I dont think it has to do with toughness or being strong. I love sports, I watch them nightly while sitting on here. Its in no way illegal and im probably wrong to judge. To quote money ball, “We’re all told at some point that we can no longer play the children’s game. Some of us are told at 18, some of us are told at 40. But we’re all told.” Im not going to die on the hill of who shouldn't wear face paint. IMO its for the kids, just like trick or treating is for kids. Im not tough or a real man because I dont go trick or treating. Its just seems childish to me.

You grow out of it. Not everyone does. Like I said, it's not my thing, but I understand that sometimes guys just want to cut loose and do crazy things. And then there's the "warrior ethos" thing mentioned. We're all a bit tribal. Sports has saved the world from many wars. We dress up and make war on the field, or, most of us who aren't good enough warriors, spectate. Sometimes that means dressing up like we're going to war. It's part of the spirit.

It doesn't matter how silly I think it is, it's harmless if we allow it to be harmless. But if we think we need to deconstruct every heritable behavior we don't personally like, to problematize it in any way we can, and then shame people for those behaviors, that's not helping the human experience any.

 

[jamil]

People being offended by a sports team name or what people wear to a game, the whole topic is stupid. Talk about first world problems.

When is Notre dame changing their team name? Surely that is disparaging to Irish.

I suspect there are people out there who are VERY sensitive to that.

 

[2A_Tom]

This whole issue is stupid. Those that paint their faces are stupid. Those that are offended by people that paint their faces are stupid.

However they are all FREE to do so.

Read my name and description.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Well, sure. But offense is generally taken more than given. Sometimes offense is genuine. But you're kinda making this akin to something like stolen valor. If I am in that situation, and I see some guy at a baseball game with zero idea of it's meaning, wearing a prop like 1000 other fans, why should I be upset? The person wearing it isn't trying to be a fraud. They're not stealing my valor. They're using it in a form of pop culture. They're wearing a prop, for **** sake. People need to calm down about this. This just smells a lot like you being offended on other people's behalf. I dunno. Maybe look at the other side of it too.

Were you this offended when Elizabeth Warren tried to claim membership in a tribe? Because I think if I were a native american I could be legitimately, justifiably offended by that. Or, I dunno. Maybe it would only have offended you if she went to a baseball game and put on a cheaply made in China head dress prop bought at the ball park swag shop for $50.

Like you said there are 1000 other people wearing it as a prop; including it into pop culture... and as all pop culture is, it's a temporary acknowledgement of something. Should we be ignorant of the culture we are mocking? Does it make a difference that the humorous acknowledgement is meant to highlight the strengths of that particular culture?

 

[Doug]

This whole issue is stupid. Those that paint their faces are stupid. Those that are offended by people that paint their faces are stupid.

However they are all FREE to do so.

Read my name and description.

Yeah, well, he painted his face, so...

 

[KLB]

Like you said there are 1000 other people wearing it as a prop; including it into pop culture... and as all pop culture is, it's a temporary acknowledgement of something. Should we be ignorant of the culture we are mocking? Does it make a difference that the humorous acknowledgement is meant to highlight the strengths of that particular culture?

How do you deride someone based upon their strengths?

Mimicking something is not mocking.

 

[defaultdotxbe]

How do you deride someone based upon their strengths?

Mimicking something is not mocking.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery racism