The 180 degree range rule

[Coach]

Are the students in that picture not aware of their targets and what is around them? I'd say they are acutely aware.

The guy with the camera is not a target and he is not a threat. So discharging a firearm around him is not acceptable.

Others have stated here that they find this acceptable but would not want to be the cameraman. If you are not willing to be the cameraman that should say something about this situation.

I was reminded of this by the story of William Tell. Forced to shoot an apple off the head of his son. Two arrows stuck into the ground before the shot was taken. The second arrow to kill the man who forced him to do this unsafe act. If an archer of William Tell's ability knows better than to do things like this we should know better than to be down range between targets in front of a group of students.

 

[Steve MI]

The guy with the camera is not a target and he is not a threat. So discharging a firearm around him is not acceptable.

Then neither and nor is there reason to shoot around those in the world that need defending or saving they arent a threat or target but those around them maybe.


Others have stated here that they find this acceptable but would not want to be the cameraman. If you are not willing to be the cameraman that should say something about this situation.

cameraman or non combatant

I was reminded of this by the story of William Tell. Forced to shoot an apple off the head of his son. Two arrows stuck into the ground before the shot was taken. The second arrow to kill the man who forced him to do this unsafe act. If an archer of William Tell's ability knows better than to do things like this we should know better than to be down range between targets in front of a group of students.

He should have a had a glock

We for years have been taught 180 up down drills, for years on end to no avail and good (poor) performance and false sense of security, and false sense of hope and ablity. we have for years been trained to fail due to governing bodies of those whom lack the skills to do.

real world is very real and very scary i have been on both ends it suck's get over it.

I get hammered every class I teach by the Local Nra god's for 360 work
yet every class i get more and more NRA trainers in them (go figure)

the cameraman has been there before and if obviosly fine with the students ablities.

yes can bad things happen, sure can

many to this day many still slam the snake drill or certian bounding drills.
I have been part of both with handgun and carbine's never felt a fear.
I had trust in my fellow shooters like he has there.

though i still dont agree 100% with muzzle up but it has its place. knowing that place is the differance.

as i see it there is a simple quote.

because it is dangerous doesnt mean it has to be.

he was fine the students were fine and the primary trainers were fine.

 

[Bill of Rights]

This is stupid. This is unacceptable. There is no call for this nonsense and there is no defense for this. Anyone can say this ok or acceptable or not breaking the four rules of gun safety, but that does not make it true. Be sure of your target and what is around it is one of those rules.

With respect, Coach, I always read Rule #4 to say, "Know your target and what's behind your target.", not "around your target."

If the cameraman is willing to take the risk and the shooter is similarly willing, I might think it unsafe, but whether I accept it or not does not make it unacceptable. Col. Cooper was a very wise man and those who heed his lessons will do nothing but help themselves, but that someone does not heed his lessons will not necessarily hurt them or anyone else.



Blessings,
Bill

 

[Coach]

With respect, Coach, I always read Rule #4 to say, "Know your target and what's behind your target.", not "around your target."

If the cameraman is willing to take the risk and the shooter is similarly willing, I might think it unsafe, but whether I accept it or not does not make it unacceptable. Col. Cooper was a very wise man and those who heed his lessons will do nothing but help themselves, but that someone does not heed his lessons will not necessarily hurt them or anyone else.



Blessings,
Bill

You look behind and I will look around it.

So how about the guy putting a cigarette in his mouth and have a student shoot it out of his mouth? None of the four rules would be broken and everyone involved with it is ok with it.

 

[Bill of Rights]

You look behind and I will look around it.

So how about the guy putting a cigarette in his mouth and have a student shoot it out of his mouth? None of the four rules would be broken and everyone involved with it is ok with it.

I won't take nor be the target in such a shot. I'll advise against it (strongly). But in the final analysis, the decision to stand and hold the "target" belongs to the person doing so and the decision to take the shot belongs to the person pulling the trigger. So does the responsibility to accept the consequences.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Coach]

I won't take nor be the target in such a shot. I'll advise against it (strongly). But in the final analysis, the decision to stand and hold the "target" belongs to the person doing so and the decision to take the shot belongs to the person pulling the trigger. So does the responsibility to accept the consequences.

Blessings,
Bill

Why not the four rules of gun safety are not being violated? The cigarette is the target not the man or woman with it dangling from their lips.

Do you believe the camera man being safe and responsible? Is such a risk necessary? Is it doing some level of good somewhere?

 

[Bill of Rights]

Why not the four rules of gun safety are not being violated? The cigarette is the target not the man or woman with it dangling from their lips.

Do you believe the camera man being safe and responsible? Is such a risk necessary? Is it doing some level of good somewhere?

No, I don't think he's being particularly responsible nor particularly safe. I don't disagree that one little bump and he's got a new hole punched in his skull, probably a fatal one, and no, I don't think it's necessary. (this all changes if the shooters have cleared their pistols and the ammo is nowhere nearby... at least to some extent...but I have nothing to indicate that's what's happened here)

Is he doing some good somewhere? Yes, he's getting good action shots for his employerto sell his business and bring in more students who will afterward shoot more safely and accurately in stress-filled situations.... though I think this could be better accomplished with a tripod or some such. My point was only that Cooper's fourth rule was always quoted to me as "behind", not "around". I don't discount that "around" is equally valid, just that it wasn't the word Cooper chose to use.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[rkba_net]

I have done the snake drill with Ken Hackathorn, it did not bother me at all. It is IMHO much like going through the confidence course in the Army, the danger is mostly psychological. Here is an article that explains the snake drill... for those not in the know...


CALIBERS -- Ken Hackathorn Combat Shooting Class

 

[Shay]

I have done the snake drill with Ken Hackathorn, it did not bother me at all. It is IMHO much like going through the confidence course in the Army, the danger is mostly psychological. Here is an article that explains the snake drill... for those not in the know...


CALIBERS -- Ken Hackathorn Combat Shooting Class

Did doing the Snake Drill have any benefits for you as either the shooter or as the person forward of the shooter's muzzle?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

My answer, "it depends." What kind of class are we in?

If I am training with a spouse or my partner (if in LE) or team (in the militree), then I can see this transpiring and having to deal with it.

If it is just me, no, a thousand times no. I am just me and not a SEEL wannabe. There's just me and I don't trust anyone else's firearm (or mine) or their ability to prevent a catastrophic flinch. I plan to keep the same number of God-issued holes and all my parts are coming with me when I decide to shuffle off this mortal coil.

I have no problems with others doing stuff like this as they are big boys and girls and voluntarily assume the risk. I have had classes where this was done. I sat it out. That's just me.

 

[Tinman]

Wow, take a weekend off the net for some range improvements, and a whole storm starts a brewing…..

My thoughts are pretty simple on this issue, I live in a 360 degree world, why wouldn’t I train in one? Yes there is value to 360 degree training, and there is value to training without a strict firing line (i.e. shooters “downrange”) with some caveats.

My issue with many trainers is the context with which these drills are used. It seems that many trainers use these types of drills to prove how high speed their training is, rather than for real purpose.

I also believe there is a time and place appropriate for this training. If I walk into an intro to defensive shooting class on day one, and the instructor looks at the students and says “we’re going to break you guys of that range training mindset by starting off with some downrange shooter drills” I’m going to politely thank the A%$hat for the nice drive to the range this morning remind him which account to send my refund to before I get back in the car. The first day of an intro course when the instructor, nor the fellow students, have any idea of the background and abilities of the other students is not the time for these types of drills. Until there is a firm understanding of the 4 rules of safe gun handling for all parties involved, the risk associated with any of these types of drills are too high.

In addition, if a student has proven an inability to follow the 4 safety rules strictly, they should never be allowed to participate in these types of drills. Let’s face it, we all know some people who just don’t have the mental horsepower to execute the required manipulations while remaining consciously aware of the 4 safety rules, and their real world implementation.

I’ve been in the training game for a while, as have many others here, I can remember back when those “in the know” told us that running a hot range with civilians who didn't live with their guns day in and day out was just asking for an ND in the staging area. I can also remember more than one conversation where I was told that low/no light training, and moving with *gasp* a loaded weapon in your hands *gasp* was unnecessarily dangerous. I also remember the days when they said that learning to work structures was a skill set that was best left to Tier 1 units and SWAT teams. I even remember not too long ago when I was told by a major manufacturer *cough* Simunitions *cough* that FoF was just too dangerous and an unnecessary risk for civilians to engage in. I think we’ve long since debunked those myths, I think it will just take a bit longer to come to terms with the validity of the 360 degree training, and the downrange shooter.

One example before I close out, I was at an intro pistol course, the instructor (a very high level guy) had just finished demonstrating his preferred reload method and we were in the process of executing it. I was behind the line watching the other relay fire 2, reload and fire 2 more. For whatever reason one of the students brought his pistol back, rotated it pointing the muzzle directly at the shooter to his left and proceeded to complete his reload, and drop the slide WITH HIS FINGER ON THE TRIGGER. Four of us, including the instructor all lunged toward the shooter in question. Before any of us could get a hand on him, he had completed his reload, and was already bringing the pistol back onto the target. This was his first, last, and only safety violation of the class. Only by the grace of God no one was shot that day. Even though we were only feet away from the monkey with the gun, none of us could have gotten to him in time to prevent the tragedy. I spoke with him after the incident, he was pretty shook up, he said he was just so focused on getting the pistol back up and running, he had tuned out the rest of the firing line. Even with a strict 180 degree rule, and hard firing line, every time you step on the range there are risks, are those risks worth the reward?

Tinman….

 

[Shay]

Well thought out post, Tinman. Thank you for your contribution to this thread.

 

[kludge]

Where are all of you? You all broke the 180 a hundred or more times at the INGO training in 2008.

Were we all un-safe then? Let's hear it

OK, I'll bite.

I agree that this is a 360 degree world and training must take that into account, but I don't think I personally would be able to participate in training that had any person "down range." Of course not having seen these tactics or training exercises, I'm not one to judge.

1. ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.

2. ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.

3. ALWAYS keep your gun unloaded while not in use.

In the training Shay gave these rules were never broken. And the methods he taught never broke the rules. From my earliest shooting days that rule (#1) was beaten into my head and nothing makes me more nervous that seeing people break rule #1.

As an early teen I was in 4H Shooting Sports and the rules were beat into my head some more... Pick up the gun with finger off the trigger... muzzle goes straight up (unless up is not a safe direction)... magazine out, action is opened... check chamber... carry the gun to the firing line muzzle up and action open facing out so everyone else can see you are holding a safe gun. When you get to your position, lay the gun with muzzle pointed down range.

I prefer straight up to down in almost every situation on the range. Why?

If you're straight up and turn 360, your still in a safe direction.

If you're down and turn 360 (assuming you're not straight down at your own foot or leg) with other people around - like the guy in the next lane - there's a strong potential for a sweep.

There are reasons for down as opposed to up in some situations, but I would think that for a 360 scan (I think this is what Lars is referring to) muzzle up would be the most preferable almost all of the time in a civilian defensive situation "on the street". And I have no problem with the way Shay taught this.

In a home defense situation up or down depends where you are in the house and where your loved ones and neighbors are. It pays to walk through your house with a flashlight or laser pointer and go through scenarios using the light or laser as a "gun" and think about tactics as well as safety.

And I'm with Coach, the photographer downrange is an unacceptable safety violation. If this were safe then backstops only need to be as large as the target. You have to consider where the bullet will go if you miss or if it passes through the target. People miss all the time.

 

[singlestacksig]

Why not the four rules of gun safety are not being violated? The cigarette is the target not the man or woman with it dangling from their lips.

Do you believe the camera man being safe and responsible? Is such a risk necessary? Is it doing some level of good somewhere?

I don't think there was any "training" reason for a guy with a camera to be downrange of the muzzle..
With modern day cameras one could place the equipment downrange and control it by remote..

This stuff is not expensive now days.. but a new skull is..

 

[cce1302]

First, I have not watched the video.

I've trained on non-linear firing lines and on moving firing lines. Yes there is a place for it. Generally, dry runs need to be conducted ahead of the live runs. Shoot and move; move and shoot. Move while shooting. Combat glide. Buddy rushes. Covered by automatic weapons in a SBF. Fifty people with M-16s and SAWs, heading down range, all firing @ their own rate, no commands given in between "fire" and "cease fire" except communication left and right. Yeah, the pucker factor goes up, but it has a very real application.
We didn't use any 180 degree rule. I've never heard of that. We used 300 mills. If the guy to the left or right of you (ahead) is within 300 mills of your sight picture, you stop firing and start moving. You can estimate 300 mills by holding your hand at arms length with fingers spread. from the tip of your thumb to the tip of your pinky is what we used to estimate 300 mills. Since then, we've all been to Iraq or Afghanistan, and most returned to tell about it. It's for real.

Do I think it's necessary for most civilians or non-police? No, probably not. I have never trained in that manner outside of military training.

 

[H.T.]

As a vetran myself I have to Agree with CCE1302. For military or Police it is a valuable tool. However I wouldn't go to your local Gun club and pick out five members to run a live fire bounding over watch with. Not saying that it couldn't be done, but you'd have to practice dry runs over and over and really know the guys or gals you were shooting with. befor ever thinking about doing a live fire run.
Most vets who've done this type of training and especialy those of us who've been in country can atest to the importance of it. We can also atest that we trust the man on our left and right with out question. Can anyone could anyone safely say that in a group of people that just paid $$$$ to take the Superduper defensive shooter course for begginers.
That being said I'd say it would be a very,very bad idea to do this type of training with a group of average Joes.