The 180 degree range rule

[Shay]

In this thread let's talk about any drill where any participant is forward of the firing line or breaks the 180 plane in any way. Do any of them have merit? Is there ever a reason to be forward of the firing line for any reason?

Lots of people will have something to say, so post your thoughts.

 

[cubby]

i think it all depends on teh TYPE of training. the level of skill and the intended role for the student. for example:

a person taking a CCW class has no reason to be down range. and no one should BE down range with that type of class. even if every shooter on the line is a high level shooter.

if its a class full of mankillers be trained for that MOS, then someone downrange can be explained and even benefitial to their training. and help the shooter in the end.... but IMHO only when NESSECCERY. not when you just want a cool photo op..... when it is BENEFITIAL to the student, and safe for all.

not to look cool. to serve a purpose, to teach.

 

[notasccrmom]

Do any of them have merit?

No. If you want to practice breaking the 180, use a blue gun.

Is there ever a reason to be forward of the firing line for any reason?

Not unless you're a super tactical SWAT operator and your kicking doors in with your team. Then there's a good chance you'll have someone behind you with a gun, but the muzzle should never be covering anything except the ground.

 

[singlestacksig]

"180 rule " & forward of the firing line are not always the same..
I have shot in IDPA matches that had a field of fire greater than 180.. but persons where not forward of the "line" ..

 

[esrice]

I can certainly see times, in training, when your body and the direction you are facing break the 180 range rule, as long as the 4 rules are still followed.

For example:

Line of shooters finishes the string of fire, shooters go to position SUL, and view their surroundings 360 degrees. Now obviously their body has broken the rule, but the loaded weapon has stayed pointed at the ground. This person has shown good muzzle discipline.

However, I think a line of shooters actively shooting at targets when a living breathing human being is standing right next to their target is very dangerous. The potential for getting bumped or moved while firing is too great. None of the 4 rules may be being broken at the time, but if one does break a rule the consequence is fatal. In a "180 range rules" world, the mistake simply becomes a negligent discharge and no one is injured/dead.

 

[Sailor]

When we do 2 and 4 man bounding drills someone is always forward of the firing line.

Drills retrieving a wounded while guys cover from the rear, same deal. I could go on and on.

We are not SWAT, just a mutual aid group that trains for reality.

 

[VUPDblue]

When we do 2 and 4 man bounding drills someone is always forward of the firing line.

Drills retrieving a wounded while guys cover from the rear, same deal. I could go on and on.

We are not SWAT, just a mutual aid group that trains for reality.

My feelings on the matter are that what you, Sailor, are doing is just fine. You get an intimate group of people together, whom you obviously trust with your life, and you train for reality without the 180 degree rule. Good for you, carry-on, be safe and make yourselves as prepared as you can. The problem I have with the 180 degree being broken in a class is that I don't completely trust people whom I have never met. The people who take these classes are only there because the paid their money and now they're in training. I think the 180 is a good place for them to start. I certainly wouldn't be on a range with others, minus the 180, who are only their because they can afford to be. I'd gladly train minus the 180 with an intimate group of people whom I greatly trusted and had plenty of experience with.
As far as the video which was posted, I don't see any real training value in engaging a target with live firearms and a live human being 15 inches from it. The danger and posibility for error is too great, especially with students who are there simply because they paid to be.

 

[Pami]

No. If you want to practice breaking the 180, use a blue gun.

What about the .. disconnect? .. you get from knowing it's not a real gun? Not the same thing, but related.. I have a difficult time with dry-fire practice drills because I *know* the gun won't recoil. I have the same issue with blue gun drills. I *know* the gun won't go off. However, when faced with a real gun pointed at me in a very, VERY basic FOF class where we used UTM guns (training-converted Glocks and a small revolver), about 98% of my senses completely shut down. I didn't have the same reaction when we were practicing with blue guns because I *knew* there was no chance of getting hurt unless my partner decided to chuck it at me for some reason.

One of my first training experiences was loading my gun, racking the slide so there was one in the chamber, turning to face my husband who was three feet away, and safely holstering my pistol while he did the same. Technically, we were both breaking each other's 180. We managed to safely holster our loaded pistols without ever breaking any of the Four Rules of Gun Safety.

What did I learn as a brand new shooter who just two months prior believed guns spontaneously exploded? It's ok to handle loaded firearms around people, especially ones I care about. If ever put into a self defense situation, I'll have a better idea of how to be peripherally aware of other people around me; I have a better chance of focusing on hitting the BG and not focusing on not hitting the innocent people around me. It is possible to be in the real world and be safe with a loaded firearm. It's ok to be around other people who also have loaded firearms. It made me VERY aware of what exactly those four rules are. With a blue gun, I can almost guarantee I would have been lazier and more lax about those rules.

In short... practicing with a blue gun doesn't solve ALL the issues some shooters have and need to overcome, just as practicing in a 180-only environment doesn't help overcome some of those issues either.

 

[Lars]

I've learned to separate "Range Rules" from "Firearms Safety"

I know if I'm in my home, at Wal Mart, Walking to my car in Fishers, etc. I'm going to have a hard time finding the berm. I also realize that no matter which direction I am facing, there are innocent bystanders "Down Range" of my muzzle. The best I can do is follow the four rules, Which include "Know your target, and what's beyond" and "Don't point my muzzle at anything I'm unwilling to destroy."

 

[Lars]

INGO Training 2008 Class Participants.....

Where are all of you? You all broke the 180 a hundred or more times at the INGO training in 2008.

Were we all un-safe then? Let's hear it

 

[bwframe]

My question to all the 360 degree range proponents;

Do you agree with this or not?

a screen shot from this thread,https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...hing_you_have_done_with_a_gun.html#post433395

 

[Lars]

My question to all the 360 degree range proponents;

Do you agree with this or not?

a screen shot from this thread,https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...hing_you_have_done_with_a_gun.html#post433395

I'll admit to not wanting to be the camera man. But I don't see a Gun pointed at him.

 

[Cwood]

All you need is someone to get hit with some brass in the face and wince while he pulls his trigger, one to the cameraman.

Then

 

[paddling_man]

I'll admit to not wanting to be the camera man. But I don't see a Gun pointed at him.

 

[Lars]

ok, so now two guns are pointed to the targets on either side of him. Anything more constructive to add?




I'm still waiting for the folks who were at the INGO class last summer to chime in. Being down range of live fire, and the 180 degree range rule are NOT the same.

 

[notasccrmom]

I know if I'm in my home, at Wal Mart, Walking to my car in Fishers, etc. I'm going to have a hard time finding the berm.

The OP specifically asked about drills. If you're doing drills in the Walmart parking lot with your gun out, you've got other problems and finding a berm isn't one of them.

I also realize that no matter which direction I am facing, there are innocent bystanders "Down Range" of my muzzle. The best I can do is follow the four rules, Which include "Know your target, and what's beyond" and "Don't point my muzzle at anything I'm unwilling to destroy."

The 180 applies when there is a firing line or a berm.

The 180 doesn't matter when the gun is holstered, only where it is pointed when it is out of the holster. If you always have innocent bystanders in front of your muzzle, you are doing something wrong.

 

[esrice]

My question to all the 360 degree range proponents;

Do you agree with this or not?

I am certainly one who sees value in training for the 360. I also think that scenario is dangerous. No 4 rules are being broken, but one mistake of those rules and he's toast.

 

[paddling_man]

ok, so now two guns are pointed to the targets on either side of him. Anything more constructive to add?

O-K. To the point, if your only experience with the reason for this thread was the single capture, then you might have been under the impression that the shooter to the left was not firing. I attempted to remedy that for you. That seemed constructive enough.

Apparently there is much back-channel going on here so I'll say this and then I'll leave this thread and subject alone.

A thread gets posted with a video. It violates the tenets of range safety most of us have lived under. It was from a poster who apparently came on under the guise of a school of which he was not affiliated but Shay confirmed it was a legit video from that school. The trainer and cameraman Shay indicates he knows personally.

It now appears to have gotten personal.

 

[Lars]

The OP specifically asked about drills. If you're doing drills in the Walmart parking lot with your gun out, you've got other problems and finding a berm isn't one of them.

The 180 applies when there is a firing line or a berm.

The 180 doesn't matter when the gun is holstered, only where it is pointed when it is out of the holster. If you always have innocent bystanders in front of your muzzle, you are doing something wrong.

How about adding in the rest of my quote?

I've learned to separate "Range Rules" from "Firearms Safety"

This first line pretty much sums it up. Range rules do not automatically imply safety.

I know if I'm in my home, at Wal Mart, Walking to my car in Fishers, etc. I'm going to have a hard time finding the berm.

This Doesn't specify training or otherwise. Did you see me Mention "drills" anywhere?

I also realize that no matter which direction I am facing, there are innocent bystanders "Down Range" of my muzzle. The best I can do is follow the four rules, Which include "Know your target, and what's beyond" and "Don't point my muzzle at anything I'm unwilling to destroy."

Stand in your front yard. Point your finger in ANY DIRECTION that isn't straight up, or straight down. (Ie a direction you might have to shoot at a human being who is intending to do harm to your or your family) There's a > 90% chance that within the range of a defensive pistol round, an innocent person is somewhere within that line. This is Why the rule "Know your target and what's beyond" is so important.

But you're right. I have far more problems than determining where the berm is.....


to Paddling_Man.... I've seen the video. I did not see, at any point a gun pointed at the camera man. I did see the student with his gun pointed straight up scan a full 360 degrees with students on either side of him, and a videographer behind and to his left. Specific to the Original posters question, do I see anything wrong with ignoring a 180degree range rule as a valid training tool? Yes. I think in a fight we will operate how we have trained. If I train to scan my surroundings with my gun out of the holster pointed in a safe(r) direction to get an idea as to whether anyone else was injured, are there witnesses, are the police behind me, did the guy(s) I shot have friends comming up behind me? I am much more likely to perform this same scan when it really matters.

I content that the camera man down range of live fire makes me nervous. I don't however believe any of the four cardinal rules of firearms safety were violated anywhere in the video.

 

[VUPDblue]

Ok, I'll put the video up so that we all know what we're discussing. Stand by...