The 180 degree range rule

[notasccrmom]

Did you see me Mention "drills" anywhere?

No, which is why what you said made no sense. The OP was specifically asking about drills and you brought everyday (off the range) activities into the mix. It's a different scenario.

Range rules are based on safety, pure and simple. They don't apply to getting mugged or a gunfight.

 

[Lars]

I was discussing the Merit, (also requested by the OP) of "non-180 degree" training.

 

[cubby]

In this thread let's talk about any drill where any participant is forward of the firing line or breaks the 180 plane in any way. Do any of them have merit? Is there ever a reason to be forward of the firing line for any reason?

Lots of people will have something to say, so post your thoughts.

original question. to compliment the original vid, above.

 

[Pami]

The 180 applies when there is a firing line or a berm.

The 180 doesn't matter when the gun is holstered, only where it is pointed when it is out of the holster. If you always have innocent bystanders in front of your muzzle, you are doing something wrong.

A thread gets posted with a video. It violates the tenets of range safety most of us have lived under. It was from a poster who apparently came on under the guise of a school of which he was not affiliated but Shay confirmed it was a legit video from that school. The trainer and cameraman Shay indicates he knows personally.

So the best time to learn how to not shoot innocent bystanders who may or may not be in front of you is when you are in an actual real-life self-defense situation? Personally, I'd rather learn to be comfortable shooting around people who are not actively attacking me but happen to be in my line of sight while I am at a range with a firing line and a berm. Just because there is a berm or a line does not necessarily mean that a 180 degree rule has to be implemented. In fact, I believe training that way only instills you that you can only fire when people are not in your LOS.


To clarify, the first time I watched this video, I admit the cameraman made me nervous. After a few days of thought and discussion with those who understood this particular training session better than me, I'd have to concur with Lars: I wouldn't want to be the cameraman, but with that man's experience, and acknowledging the distance the shooters are from their targets, and having a pretty decent understanding of the Four Rules and how guns actually work... the biggest concern I would have if I were the cameraman would be splatter from the gunfire. I'm not discounting accidents happening. I'm also not discounting I may get into a car accident tomorrow because of a stupid drunk driver. I still get in my car.


This thread, however, is not about this particular video or this particular drill. I believe it was meant to be a discussion about whether it is ever acceptable to train in a 360 environment as opposed to a 180 environment.

 

[Johnson]

original question. to compliment the original vid, above.

What original vid? Am I missing the original video that seems to have caused this stir?

 

[VUPDblue]

Evidently my work computer won't cooperate with my video embedding. I'll try again tonight at home...unless someone else has it...

 

[cubby]

What original vid? Am I missing the original video that seems to have caused this stir?

op! sorry. it was there when i posted (a link anyway)... gone now.....

 

[notasccrmom]

So the best time to learn how to not shoot innocent bystanders who may or may not be in front of you is when you are in an actual real-life self-defense situation?

Not exactly. Provided that you practice hitting what you are aiming at, you will be fine. Practicing missing what you aren't aiming at is very different and quite dangerous when using a live person as your no-shoot target.

I could practice getting hit by buses while crossing the road, but I'd much rather practice looking both ways before crossing.

 

[Pami]

Not exactly. Provided that you practice hitting what you are aiming at, you will be fine. Practicing missing what you aren't aiming at is very different and quite dangerous when using a live person as your no-shoot target.

I could practice getting hit by buses while crossing the road, but I'd much rather practice looking both ways before crossing.

Let me start by saying that I agree using a live person as your no-shoot target is dangerous.

That said...

In my own personal experiences, having a person stand slightly inside my LOS makes me more nervous and more likely to miss what I'm aiming at, no matter how much I practice hitting what I'm aiming at precisely because I'm nervous about hitting what I'm not aiming at. To this point, it is absolutely necessary to practice hitting what I'm aiming at while there is a live person at least within my LOS. If I were put into a real life scenario without having at least the amount of training I've already had, I can guarantee that I would freeze up and be much more concerned about not hitting what I'm not aiming at.

You absolutely cannot spend all of your training time on a 180 degree range. Maybe YOU can, but I can't. I have to be confident that I am not going to hit that person trying to hide behind a magazine rack 45 degrees to my right while I'm aiming at the BG directly in front of me. This goes back to the blue gun vs. real gun mentality. Dry-fire practice vs. live fire practice. Cardboard target vs. real person.

I'll practice looking both ways before I cross the road, but if I absolutely have to cross a road with a bus coming at me, I'd much rather have practice seeing one on the street before I have to actually cross it.

 

[notasccrmom]

Pami, You make some valid points, but I must say that it all comes down to mindset. 90% is mental, and the rest is in your head when it comes to shooting. If you are telling yourself to not hit that hostage next to the bad guy, there's a good chance that you will do just that under pressure. The human brain does not understand negatives. When you tell yourself, "don't hit that guy" your mind hears "hit that guy". It's weird, but true.

We need to learn to control our focus under stress. *cough* Competitive Shooting *cough*

 

[Johnson]

Let me start by saying that I agree using a live person as your no-shoot target is dangerous.

That said...

In my own personal experiences, having a person stand slightly inside my LOS makes me more nervous and more likely to miss what I'm aiming at, no matter how much I practice hitting what I'm aiming at precisely because I'm nervous about hitting what I'm not aiming at. To this point, it is absolutely necessary to practice hitting what I'm aiming at while there is a live person at least within my LOS. If I were put into a real life scenario without having at least the amount of training I've already had, I can guarantee that I would freeze up and be much more concerned about not hitting what I'm not aiming at.

You absolutely cannot spend all of your training time on a 180 degree range. Maybe YOU can, but I can't. I have to be confident that I am not going to hit that person trying to hide behind a magazine rack 45 degrees to my right while I'm aiming at the BG directly in front of me. This goes back to the blue gun vs. real gun mentality. Dry-fire practice vs. live fire practice. Cardboard target vs. real person.

I'll practice looking both ways before I cross the road, but if I absolutely have to cross a road with a bus coming at me, I'd much rather have practice seeing one on the street before I have to actually cross it.

Pami, consider yourself "repped" for this one.

Until I experienced my first FOF class, I didn't understand how different it is to be a part of a real scenario played out instead of just talking about them or watching situation videos. In fact, I was completely surprised at how much it effected me mentally to have a classmate point a Simunitions converted Glock at me. I KNEW it was loaded with Simunition rounds and could NOT fire real ammo. Yet seeing a real Glock being pointed at me and knowing that the intent of the individual was to shoot me (which they did, repeatedly ) is an experience that is as close to real as I ever care to get.

All of this to say, under the right and controlled circumstances, I definitely see the value in having training conditions that are as close to the actual event you are training for as possible. Sometimes this means taking calculated, increased risks where appropriate and doing so in as safe a manner as possible. Is it right (or even safe?) for everyone? Not at all. But done right and for the right reasons, it can be an invaluable aid to training.

 

[Pami]

Pami, You make some valid points, but I must say that it all comes down to mindset. 90% is mental, and the rest is in your head when it comes to shooting. If you are telling yourself to not hit that hostage next to the bad guy, there's a good chance that you will do just that under pressure. The human brain does not understand negatives. When you tell yourself, "don't hit that guy" your mind hears "hit that guy". It's weird, but true.

We need to learn to control our focus under stress. *cough* Competitive Shooting *cough*

This is true, and I never suggested I disagree with you on that. I get the value of Competitive Shooting, which is a 180 degree environment. It does build up a way to control your focus in a stressed environment. I hope you can similarly appreciate the value of FOF training, which is a 360 degree environment and turns up the stress level a notch, further improving your mindset.

 

[Shay]

Ok, I'll put the video up so that we all know what we're discussing. Stand by...

We're not discussing the video specifically. We're discussing ANY time where anyone is forward of the firing line.

From what I've read so far...

1. It's never OK.
2. It's OK as long as the group is Tier 1.
3. It's OK as long as the group trains with each other frequently.

 

[Cwood]

Why are we not discussing the video? It is the biggest reason why this has all come back up again.

 

[bwframe]

I'm not opposed to the idea of 360 degree training. The difficulty I have is determining who to trust with that training. Upon seeing the video discussed, I know at least one outfit that I won't trust. Those who would say that the camera man's placement in the vid is acceptable, cause me to take their opinions with a grain of salt.

Come on folks, I understand how set you are in your beliefs. 360, FOF, and the like. However, can you not see that THE CAMERA GUY DID NOT NEED TO BE THERE? He was not part of the training scenario or drill. His mission could have been accomplished with a tripod. His presence between the targets was a totally unnecessary risk.

 

[notasccrmom]

I hope you can similarly appreciate the value of FOF training, which is a 360 degree environment and turns up the stress level a notch, further improving your mindset.

I don't disagree with that at all, but I do have a huge problem with having anyone downrange while shooting is taking place. Live firearms have no place in FOF training.

 

[Coach]

My question to all the 360 degree range proponents;

Do you agree with this or not?

a screen shot from this thread,https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...hing_you_have_done_with_a_gun.html#post433395

This is stupid. This is unacceptable. There is no call for this nonsense and there is no defense for this. Anyone can say this ok or acceptable or not breaking the four rules of gun safety, but that does not make it true. Be sure of your target and what is around it is one of those rules.

 

[Coach]

We're not discussing the video specifically. We're discussing ANY time where anyone is forward of the firing line.

From what I've read so far...

1. It's never OK.
2. It's OK as long as the group is Tier 1.
3. It's OK as long as the group trains with each other frequently.

I will go with that it is never necessary. But it could be done in some cases safely, but not necessary.

 

[Shay]

Anyone can say this ok or acceptable or not breaking the four rules of gun safety, but that does not make it true. Be sure of your target and what is around it is one of those rules.

Are the students in that picture not aware of their targets and what is around them? I'd say they are acutely aware.

 

[Shay]

I will go with that it is never necessary. But it could be done in some cases safely, but not necessary.

Not even for SWAT, military or other team training?