Secession: an academic discussion

[Paul30]

One thing that is missing in all of this.
We CKW and myself) have paid into SS since we were kids. It is not all of our retirement but a good portion as CKW is on a well deserved disability from her SS and I receive mine. When the dip 's and politicians crashed the economy in 06/08 we lost most of whet we had for retirement and never recovered. It would be a struggle if that went away and many due to poor planning etc would surely perish.
As we paid into this rolling Ponsey scheme for 50+ years to just throw in the towel is not something I or a zillion others is ready to do.

I hate it but there it is.

You worked for it and earned it and you can receive it as long as it is available no matter what country you decide to live. If you moved to Germany tomorrow, you should be able to draw your retirement. Many people have "dual citizenship" and live in another country. You may pay taxes back here in the U.S. but you can still draw your retirement pay. If states secede it would be like they were another country and the same should apply. I checked on that years ago when I considered moving to another country for a period simply for educational purposes.

 

[NKBJ]

Doug, its far to late in the game for any of the things like investments. We were slaughtered in the last crash and never recovered. It is exactly what it is now. Yes the Medicare and supplement policy's. CKW has some serious reoccurring issues. Beyond serious.
I dont see enough people being like minded to make this happen but what if....?????

It's reset time.

 

[rooster]

Internet memes getting closer to reality. The Jesus land and United states of Canada proposition meme is beginning to look realistic

Jesusland map - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Electric_Rooster]

Imagine if there was a line drawn. Lets say the Mississippi river dividing the country into the left and the right. Two different countries. west of the Mississippi the loons can live and have their Utopia. The right side being conservative minded people owning business and thriving. The West would die. They cannot make it. They would have all the welfare rats. all the illegals and all the crime. Sounds good to me.

Im all for this idea.

 

[Electric_Rooster]

Do you have any idea how many folks from places like Wyoming or the Dakota's would beat knots in your head for throwing them in with the California Flakes?

Ok. The snowflakes can have California, Oregon, Washington, New York, and New Jersey than. We will keep the rest.

 

[jamil]

Ok. The snowflakes can have California, Oregon, Washington, New York, and New Jersey than. We will keep the rest.

No. Why give the snowflakes the good weather and views? Give them the shitholes. They can have Massachusetts through Maryland, but only the parts of states east of the Appalachians. They can even have DC as it's also a ******** with exceptions of the touristy parts.

They like big city collectivism anyway. Let them build their grand utopia there. Ship all the progressives there. I've even got a name for their new nation all picked out. The Non-binary Gender-neutral Woke States of Diversity, Inclusion, and Equity. So basically the NGWSDIE.

 

[jamil]

Seriously though I don't advocate for succession. It's a bad idea.

 

[jamil]

Compensate the central state for its "loss" of property. If the property is important enough to the central state, let the States lease the property back to the central state if thet choose. Just one idea. Let the negotiations begin!

This is from another thread. I think if a group of states decided to succeed from the greater US, an acknowledgment of ownership of federal property is necessary to avoid reasons to fight. That didn't happen leading up to the American Civil War. And unless that happens the likelihood of conflict is greatly heightened, just like it caused the first shot back then.

 

[AtTheMurph]

"You worked for it and earned it"

Sorry, but this is the great lie. You didn't work for SSI payments and you don't earn SSI payments.

You paid TAXES for years that were spent by the Federal government. You don't have an account. You didn't earn anything.

You had the pleasure of paying taxes. That is all.

If the Federal government decides to pay you benefits is up to them. How much they pay you is up to them. When they pay you is up to them. You have no rights to anything.

That is the reality. And if everyone actually understood that then perhaps we could end this BS socialist money pit and move on an all be wealthier.

Everyone agrees that the system is unsustainable. We cannot tax enough to pay promised benefits. So there are really two options:

1) reduce benefits and raise taxes which being political suicide will never happen (so it won't ever be fixed)

2) Print the money and hand it out. This will have the same effect as reducing benefits as the value of the dollar will simply be debased and your actual SSI payment won't buy an egg (like in Venezuela). You will get every penny you "deserve" / "earned"/ "paid for" but it won't do you a damn bit of good.

 

[SumtnFancy]

Seriously though I don't advocate for succession. It's a bad idea.

I would rather see States have more rights and the ability to actually govern their own people without federal interjection.

 

[BigRed]

This is from another thread. I think if a group of states decided to succeed from the greater US, an acknowledgment of ownership of federal property is necessary to avoid reasons to fight. That didn't happen leading up to the American Civil War. And unless that happens the likelihood of conflict is greatly heightened, just like it caused the first shot back then.

Jefferson Davis appointed a number of peace commissioners, in conformity with the resolution of the Confederate Congress. Among others, Martin Crawford of Georgia, John Forsyth of Alabama, and Andre Roman of Louisiana served as such.

Their assignment was to travel to Washington in March 1861 BEFORE the events involving Ft. Sumter and offer to pay for any federal property in the Confederate States as well as the Confederate States' portion of national debt from the former union.

- James Randall "Constitutional Problems under Lincoln" (Urbana: University of Illinios Press 1926/1964), pp. 63-64

 

[jamil]

Jefferson Davis appointed a number of peace commissioners, in conformity with the resolution of the Confederate Congress. Among others, Martin Crawford of Georgia, John Forsyth of Alabama, and Andre Roman of Louisiana served as such.

Their assignment was to travel to Washington in March 1861 BEFORE the events involving Ft. Sumter and offer to pay for any federal property in the Confederate States as well as the Confederate States' portion of national debt from the former union.

- James Randall "Constitutional Problems under Lincoln" (Urbana: University of Illinios Press 1926/1964), pp. 63-64

What specifically were they supposed to negotiate for, and what was the result of that? Maybe you could consider more than sources that support your ideological viewpoint.

 

[jamil]

What specifically were they supposed to negotiate for, and what was the result of that? Maybe you could consider more than sources that support your ideological viewpoint in your reply.

 

[BigRed]

What specifically were they supposed to negotiate for, and what was the result of that? Maybe you could consider more than sources that support your ideological viewpoint.

My response was to your comment in 168...

"think if a group of states decided to succeed from the greater US, an acknowledgment of ownership of federal property is necessary to avoid reasons to fight. That didn't happen leading up to the American Civil War."

My response was that it did happen before the war.

The commission was sent to negotiate compensation for federal property as well as their portion of debt. This is consistent with what I noted should be negotiated should a secession take place today.

 

[jamil]

My response was to your comment in 168...

"think if a group of states decided to succeed from the greater US, an acknowledgment of ownership of federal property is necessary to avoid reasons to fight. That didn't happen leading up to the American Civil War."

My response was that it did happen before the war.

The commission was sent to negotiate compensation for federal property as well as their portion of debt. This is consistent with what I noted should be negotiated should a secession take place today.

I asked you what was the specific goal they were sent to achieve. So tell me. What were the terms that they were supposed to negotiate? How much were they authorized to offer to the North to compensate them?

 

[BigRed]

I asked you what was the specific goal they were sent to achieve. So tell me. What were the terms that they were supposed to negotiate? How much were they authorized to offer to the North to compensate them?

I have. They were to negotiate purchase and debt settlement. Anything negotiated would have been subject to congressional approval.

Lincoln refused any peaceful relations with States walking away as was their reserved power.

 

[Leadeye]

I doubt that secession, if it comes, will be anything like what people are expecting.

 

[NKBJ]

Amen.

 

[NKBJ]

Was reading through a piece today about when Ukraine de-nuclearized, when the USSR split up. Fascinating stuff. Breaking up is hard to do.

 

[BigRed]

I doubt that secession, if it comes, will be anything like what people are expecting.

Same has been said of Brexit.