Modern Samurai Project Black Belt Standards

[cedartop]

As is usual on the internet we have strayed quite afar from the original topic. My reason for posting this was merely to share what I thought are some cool standards and wondered if anyone else had fun chasing things like this. Somehow we got into PTSD and stress inoculation and whatever else. Not to say that all of that is not good subject matter for discussion, it is. My point was not that being able to perform these standards was going to make you Delta Force, or a tough street cop or anything like that. The point of it for me is just chasing excellence for it own sake.

I will continue to try to perform to standards like these just like some will continue to strive for the BJJ black belt and others will continue to do nothing if that is what they want. It all ends up being individual priorities and I can't tell you yours are wrong. As for those of you who say we should have a broad base of skills, again, I totally agree.

 

[chezuki]

Some people are black belts in topic redirection and thread derailment.

 

[cedartop]

Some people are black belts in topic redirection and thread derailment.

I like how you stated that. I am as guilty as anyone else at thread drift, but not to the black belt level skill wise.

 

[rhino]

This "discussion" is amusing. Lots of focus on fractions of a second. How many hours of training are needed to shave 2 tenths of reaction time? Are those hours dedicated to that wisely spent? Maybe, if you have the excess time. For others, maybe not. How about accurate fire while moving? You see these ultra fast comp shooters and admire their talent. But that talent doesn't keep them from crapping their pants when faced with a situation requiring those same skills. Who cares how fast you can shoot if you can't perform under extreme stress. Can you draw and deliver ACCURATE fire while facing a direct threat? Can you do so while someone shooting back at you?

How can anyone possibly answer those particular questions if they've never been in a situation like that? They can't. This discussion is about preparation and training and practice and standards to quantify ability level in that regard. How someone will react under the stress of a real attack is a related but unanswerable question in the absence of that experience.

EDIT TO ADD: I recognize that FoF is as close as you can get to "the real thing," but I don't believe it's the "same" if people know for certain they won't be seriously injured or die. I've seen people take risks during FoF that they probably would not do if they believed a real bullet was going to be the cost of a mistake.


As far as accurate fire while moving goes, I can attest that Coach, Cedartop, Riverman67, and Chezuki can all do that pretty well because I've seen them do it. I can shoot while moving too, but most people can't tell that I'm actually moving unless they close their eyes for 10 seconds, open them, close for 10 seconds, open them, etc. That's true for whether I'm shooting while moving or just moving.

 

[rhino]

Some people are black belts in topic redirection and thread derailment.

I like how you stated that. I am as guilty as anyone else at thread drift, but not to the black belt level skill wise.

GUILTY! Well, actually I'm well beyond black belt in those two areas.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

How can anyone possibly answer those particular questions if they've never been in a situation like that? They can't. This discussion is about preparation and training and practice and standards to quantify ability level in that regard. How someone will react under the stress of a real attack is a related but unanswerable question in the absence of that experience.

Realistic force-on-force is, IMO, the best predictor of how you'll perform "for real" other than "for real" incidents. The scenario I was faced with that culminated in a shooting was so close to a FoF scenario we'd done in training that I actually internally commented on it. My brain basically said "hey, we've done this before in training, we've been here before." I know there's others on this board who've been in "for real" shootings, competitive shooting, and FoF training. Up to them if they wish to weigh in or not, of course, but there's a significant chunk of evidence that how you perform on FoF simulation is how you'll perform in the heat of "for real". The aftermath is quite different, mind you, but the "in the moment" is very same-same. Not as intense, not a 100% predictor, but significant correlation.

 

[riverman67]

How can anyone possibly answer those particular questions if they've never been in a situation like that? They can't. This discussion is about preparation and training and practice and standards to quantify ability level in that regard. How someone will react under the stress of a real attack is a related but unanswerable question in the absence of that experience.

EDIT TO ADD: I recognize that FoF is as close as you can get to "the real thing," but I don't believe it's the "same" if people know for certain they won't be seriously injured or die. I've seen people take risks during FoF that they probably would not do if they believed a real bullet was going to be the cost of a mistake.


As far as accurate fire while moving goes, I can attest that Coach, Cedartop, Riverman67, and Chezuki can all do that pretty well because I've seen them do it. I can shoot while moving too, but most people can't tell that I'm actually moving unless they close their eyes for 10 seconds, open them, close for 10 seconds, open them, etc. That's true for whether I'm shooting while moving or just moving.

I've witnessed you shooting on the move ,SHO, wearing a bandanna like a western outlaw......just because someone said you wouldn't.
Got your hits as well
Don't sell yourself short

 

[devildog70]

In theory, there is no such thing as too accurate, or too fast. In reality, there comes a point where your training is better dedicated to improving other skills. What that point, and what those skills are depends on the individual, their lifestyle, their profession, their finances, etc.

There are a ton of guys out there who are measurably faster than me, or who are measurably more accurate than me, that I wouldn't choose as backup over some guys who are slower/less accurate. Speed and accuracy are large pieces of the pie, but they aren't the only pieces. Everyone is a death-dealing ninja until the bullets start flying.

That said, there is a reason organizations like SOFD-D hire competition guys to teach them to shoot.​ They hire other guys to teach tactics.

 

[JBishop]

There are a ton of guys out there who are measurably faster than me, or who are measurably more accurate than me, that I wouldn't choose as backup over some guys who are slower/less accurate.

Not sure which side I'd fall on.


Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[downrange72]

Sorry, just catching on to this thread. I’ll read more and see what the hubbub is.

I know now under a second draw from concealment is an impressive feat. About the best I can do is 1.5 at 7...let alone 25. I know it can be done but that whole practice thing gets in the way.

The last carry gun match I had a pretty decent night. I’d have won the match if it weren’t for this one overly-emotional guy who was just faster and more accurate.

https://www.practiscore.com/results/new/63226?q_result=0&q_division=0

that accuracy thing always creeps in. I was slightly faster than you but down the list a ways. That overly emotional guy is fast, accurate and cantankerous

 

[chezuki]

Sorry, just catching on to this thread. I’ll read more and see what the hubbub is.

I know now under a second draw from concealment is an impressive feat. About the best I can do is 1.5 at 7...let alone 25. I know it can be done but that whole practice thing gets in the way.



that accuracy thing always creeps in. I was slightly faster than you but down the list a ways. That overly emotional guy is fast, accurate and cantankerous

Probably “Black Belt level” cantankerous.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

Social stress and survival stress are different, and inoculation to one doesn't work against the other because different parts of the brain control each. Audie Murphy is well known for being unflappable in combat but being incredibly nervous about public speaking. Cirillo was likely the same, either naturally wired for or experience inoculated against survival stress but less resilient to social stress.

I'll always remember one episode of Running Wild with Bear Grylls. He was working with some actor who I didn't know, and they were climbing and repelling down these wicked high cliffs on a mountain. When they were in camp, the actor was talking about how calmly Bear handled the day's events and how scared he himself was, at times.

The actor asked Bear if there was anything that he was scared of, and Bear looked at him, honestly and said "Yes, dinner parties."

 

[Jackson]

I'll always remember one episode of Running Wild with Bear Grylls. He was working with some actor who I didn't know, and they were climbing and repelling down these wicked high cliffs on a mountain. When they were in camp, the actor was talking about how calmly Bear handled the day's events and how scared he himself was, at times.

The actor asked Bear if there was anything that he was scared of, and Bear looked at him, honestly and said "Yes, dinner parties."

This gem here set my opinion of Bear Grylls and his survival advice:

[video=youtube_share;R25Eflr0oJ8]https://youtu.be/R25Eflr0oJ8[/video]

 

[devildog70]

Not sure which side I'd fall on.


Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

LOL. On the side of those I would take for backup.

 

[riverman67]

I got to the range this morning, hung a target and ran the drills. No warm ups ,no dry fire runs before the runs.
Xdm OSP with a shield optic. This pistol is currently auditioning to be my carry gun because I'm going blind.
Draw to an A @ 7- 1.44, got this in one take
Bill Drill @ 7 - 2.85 This one took a few runs, I kept dropping charlies, all the times were similar.
3x2 Drill @ 3- 2.87 Took two tries, I just missed the card with the first shot on the first run. It was a 2.84
Draw to an A @ 25 1.63 Got this in one take as well.

I was feeling pretty bad about myself after this so I decided more carry gun practice was in order.
I ran dot torture @ 7 for a 44/50 the one handed shooting was my downfall as usual
Then ran 5 in a row 5x5 drills @ 7 from the holster and I cleaned them with time to spare.

Out of curiosity I ran the drills again with my current carry gun just to see if my inexperience with the red dot was part of the issue.
XDM 4.5 .40
Draw to an A @ 7- 1.38
Bill Drill @ 7- 2.53 took two tries
3x2 @ 3 - 2.55
draw to an A @ 25 1.62

I would conclude the sights didn't make much difference and the slightly better times can be attributed to being warmed up a bit.

I really suck
Where is the nearest gun buy back program

 

[downrange72]

Probably “Black Belt level” cantankerous.

I think he maybe 4th degree cantankerous

 

[cedartop]

I guess since I brought this up I had to run it. Used my EDC Gen5 w/RMR in Dale Fricke AIWB holster with t shirt concealment. Original plan was to do 10 strings of each to get a good sample but didn't feel like using that much ammo on Bill drills. So, for better or worse this is how I did right out of my training journal.

One shot at 7
1.06C, 1.00C, 1.01A, .97C, .94C, .96C, 1.10C, .98C, .1.06A, 1.00A,

3+2 at 3
2.20 3A 1 head mike, 2.16 clean, 2.22 clean, 2.48 clean, 2.07 clean, 2.01 clean, 2.35 clean, 1.87 1C

25 yard 1 shot
1.59A, 1.46C, 1.54C, 1.29D, 1.32C, 1.44A, 1.50C, 1.27C, 1.46A, 1.42C

Bill drill
2.19 3A3C, 2.24 5A1C, 2.15 6A, 2.19 5A1C.

As you can see I didn't pass any of them. IMHO to say you could do this on demand you would have to not only be able to walk right up and hit it on the first try, but you would also have to be able to do it 90% of the time. I am close enough that some concentrated effort may get me there on all but the Bill drill where it is my slow trigger finger that is holding me back. As to the 25 yard one I was a bit disappointed with my hits. It was totally a trigger issue as I was calling the shots every time. I think in my usual DeFoor pistol test #2 runs at practice I am going to lower the 25 yard 2 shot par time from 4 to 3 seconds.

 

[riverman67]

I'm thinking my biggest issue to overcome is the concealed draw. I don't practice it much because I don't worry about concealment much.
The second biggest is reaction to the buzzer, its an issue on every drill.

 

[Coach]

I'm thinking my biggest issue to overcome is the concealed draw. I don't practice it much because I don't worry about concealment much.
The second biggest is reaction to the buzzer, its an issue on every drill.

Same for me. Working on it regularly now for the first time. going to be a black belt some day.

 

[cedartop]

The Need For Speed? (Podcast ? Season 6, Ballistic Radio Episode 265, July 29th, 2018) ? Ballistic Radio This was a really good episode that is somewhat germane to this thread. I say somewhat because it is not germane to what my original point was, but fits quite well with what the thread turned into.