Homegrown Jihad

[HICKMAN]

They train to kill us all. We train to kill them. In the end we'll probably just have to see whether "sight picture, breath control, squeeze the trigger, gently like a ****" beats "Insh'allah"

This is why I've started shooting again. Steel, pins, paper, whatever, I'm getting back in shape and ready for anything.

 

[HICKMAN]

When the video showed the maps of their compounds, the gold dots took a sharp swerve south of Indiana. Thank God!



TK

That's because THESE Bubba's don't put up with that crap.

 

[tyler34]

here's the trailer of that movie.

YouTube - Homegrown Jihad

 

[RogerB]

I dont like the idea of the government shutting things down. I wonder if these people who are training are US citizens? If not, i have no problem with them being shut down.

That being said, it wouldnt make me upset to hear that the people in these camps disappeared and the camps burned to the ground.

camp? what camp? Heck, wildfires are popping up all over the states nowa days....

just sayin....

 

[cox7215]

Just give me a time and location. I might have a few things to bring to the table.

A few years ago, I was in the M.E., and some of the other echelons we had with us were Iraqis that had left after Saddam took over, and they were trained by the U.S., in a camp here in the states, just about like the Cubans in Florida. I wonder how these camps were established, especially since I saw Class 3 and Class 9 being utilized in the video.
Looks like a Spook operation that could easily go sour to me.

...............

 

[jontheturboguy]

Question for you:

The gentleman that was speaking said that when they spoke to the LEOs about these compounds, the response was that their hands are tied: these "training camps" are Constitutionally protected, and there is nothing they can do. They kind of have a point. Aside from the fact that these training facilities are marketed toward Muslims in the US and Canada, what makes these facilities any different than places like Gunsite, Tactical Response, etc.?

I don't mean to step on toes with this question... I just want to know how to answer when a non-gun-nut (not necessarily an anti, but just not an enthusiast like we are) asks me "What makes them different?" In other words... if the government wanted to shut down these facilities, how could they do it and NOT shut down other training facilities that are marketed to the average Joe American?

Great question, but I'll answer your question with two more:

1.) Are these people found in these training camps legal United States Citizens?

2.) Are these training camps for the protection of the People of the United States and or the Constitution?

I think you'll find the answer is NO to both.

That being said, these camps should be shut down immediately.

Id like to know if they have the ATF's blessings for all of those explosives and fully automatic Ak's.

 

[SavageEagle]

If the leaders of these camps are linked to terrorism, they have basis to shut them down right? Doesn't the ATF have the authority to "check up" on OUR shooter training classes? If so, why don't they do that with them, plant some bugs with permission from a search warrant from a judge on the grounds of suspected terrorism and find out WTF they are doing out there? i don't think that's too much to ask. Go to a judge, get a warrant, bug the place, take em out. Sounds simpler than it probably is, but still. They know we don't pose a threat unless they try to take our guns. These people pose a threat just being here.

 

[SavageEagle]

On second thought, if they attack, they will know where and how and could use that attack as leverage to levy more restrictions on Americans. Not just take our guns, but declare martial law, etc.

 

[Pami]

Great question, but I'll answer your question with two more:

1.) Are these people found in these training camps legal United States Citizens?

2.) Are these training camps for the protection of the People of the United States and or the Constitution?

I think you'll find the answer is NO to both.

That being said, these camps should be shut down immediately.

Id like to know if they have the ATF's blessings for all of those explosives and fully automatic Ak's.

I had to think about this a few minutes, and I'm still not sure my reply will be cohesive.

1.) I don't read all the news stories, so I'm not as up to speed on this example as I should be, but aren't there people complaining that the prisoners held at Gitmo aren't being given due process and fair trials? If non-US Citizens (prisoners of war!) should receive the same US Constitutionally protected rights in that instance, then why shouldn't we offer them the same protection of rights to keep and bear arms and train to know how to use those arms as well?

2.) The same people who *might* make the argument above would also say that is what the Government is for! To protect you! That's why we have the Army, the Navy, the Marines, the Air Force, the National Guard, the state and local LEOs, firemen! We don't need training camps at all for anyone, citizen or not! [Please note: not my actual beliefs... just an example of an argument against any form of citizen training].

If you've read any of my admittedly few serious posts on this site, you'll know I'm one of lower level training junkies here. If I had unlimited funds, I'd be training every weekend. When I became interested in firearms, I demanded that my husband show me that good training was available, and when he held open the door, I tiptoed through and then stood in awe of the opportunities. I firmly believe those opportunities need to remain available to the general populace.

I agree that we don't need or want training grounds for future terrorists here. We DO need to be careful to point out how we can pinpoint "THIS" is a terrorist training camp and "THAT" is a US civilian training site.

 

[Annie Oakley]

My brother was lurking about the site and had this response to me. It says what I think in a better way than I could put it........



I noticed Pami and some others, indicated there was no difference in the training at these camps and the training that some take here in this country, I think Gunsite was the example. There is a difference.
Advanced firearms training as provided at Gunsite and other facilities is for the purpose of improved firearms handling as it relates to self defense. Could that training be used for less than honorable activities? Yes it could to some degree. The training pursued in the Muslim camps is offered to a religious group known for perpetrating terrorism, violence and hatred around the world, specifically towards Americans. American advanced firearms training camps don't teach one how to hijack a vehicles, make explosives, set booby traps and other activities that are clearly of a terrorist and guerrilla warfare nature. What we saw on the video were samples of what the news crew was allowed to see and the tip of the iceberg. What we didn't see was the training in how to torture, place explosives in schools, office buildings and other public places for the purpose of indiscriminately killing and maiming men women and children. And you can be sure there is more.

If we take the stance that shutting down these camps might be against our best interests as it relates to our 2A rights that's so wrong! There is a clear line between our rights and subversive activities to take them away. A line that has become blurred by those who are afraid to take a stand and draw a line in the sand for fear of the constitution. We have our rights that should be preserved and at the same time those who would harm us and train for violence against us in our own country should be stopped!
In 1941 would the Japanese have been allowed to conduct training classes for pilots in Hawaii. Classes that teach the best methods and tactics for performing a surprise attack on a naval port?

 

[dross]

Let's back up to the 50,000 foot level and look at this. This issue is an opportunity to identify a principle, and then to stand on it. Everyone living in this country has certain rights. Legal residents who are not citizens have some, but not all the rights of citizens. One of the rights non-citizens have is the right to keep and bear arms, same as the rest of us.

If these people are doing something illegal, they should be dealt with according to the law. If they are not, but what they are doing is simply scary to us - even if I agree we may have good reason to be frightened - that's not enough reason to abridge their rights.

This is the price of a free society. When we get together at a range, practicing on shooting human-shaped targets, that scares the hell of lots of lefties. When they talk on their blogs, or over drinks, they're all completely certain that there should be some way to stop us, and they "know" we're dangerous. The price of a free society is that these guys can practice all they want, but until they DO something that initiates force against someone else, they have every right to do what they're doing. By recognizing the principle that protects them, we protect ourselves.

I hate racism, but I don't think the law should outlaw even the ugliest racial speech. If you start picking and choosing, eventually someone will be in charge who thinks what YOU do is dangerous and needs to be stopped. It's not about what enough people think, or who thinks it or does it. It's about natural born rights. They have every right to practice tactics, even if we believe they have bad intentions.

Now, if we can prove they're actively planning something - bust 'em. Until then, let's not trade freedom for security.

 

[Annie Oakley]

Shooting a vaguely human shaped targets and showing people strangling others, building bombs and such are very different in my mind. I honestly don't know if these people are citizens here or not but if they aren't I don't think they should share the Rights that the rest of us have. So, do we wait for them to kill Americans because of their belief that it is what Allah wants? I guess I would just like to know a bit more about who they are.

 

[RogerB]

My brother was lurking about the site and had this response to me. It says what I think in a better way than I could put it........



I noticed Pami and some others, indicated there was no difference in the training at these camps and the training that some take here in this country, I think Gunsite was the example. There is a difference.
Advanced firearms training as provided at Gunsite and other facilities is for the purpose of improved firearms handling as it relates to self defense. Could that training be used for less than honorable activities? Yes it could to some degree. The training pursued in the Muslim camps is offered to a religious group known for perpetrating terrorism, violence and hatred around the world, specifically towards Americans. American advanced firearms training camps don't teach one how to hijack a vehicles, make explosives, set booby traps and other activities that are clearly of a terrorist and guerrilla warfare nature. What we saw on the video were samples of what the news crew was allowed to see and the tip of the iceberg. What we didn't see was the training in how to torture, place explosives in schools, office buildings and other public places for the purpose of indiscriminately killing and maiming men women and children. And you can be sure there is more.

If we take the stance that shutting down these camps might be against our best interests as it relates to our 2A rights that's so wrong! There is a clear line between our rights and subversive activities to take them away. A line that has become blurred by those who are afraid to take a stand and draw a line in the sand for fear of the constitution. We have our rights that should be preserved and at the same time those who would harm us and train for violence against us in our own country should be stopped!
In 1941 would the Japanese have been allowed to conduct training classes for pilots in Hawaii. Classes that teach the best methods and tactics for performing a surprise attack on a naval port?

tell your brother "well said"

 

[RogerB]

sounds like all the more reason we should be keeping and bearing arms, training in the use of them and first aid etc. So when these intruders DO decide to take some form of action against this country and its people, they will be dealt with accordingly.

Let's back up to the 50,000 foot level and look at this. This issue is an opportunity to identify a principle, and then to stand on it. Everyone living in this country has certain rights. Legal residents who are not citizens have some, but not all the rights of citizens. One of the rights non-citizens have is the right to keep and bear arms, same as the rest of us.

If these people are doing something illegal, they should be dealt with according to the law. If they are not, but what they are doing is simply scary to us - even if I agree we may have good reason to be frightened - that's not enough reason to abridge their rights.

This is the price of a free society. When we get together at a range, practicing on shooting human-shaped targets, that scares the hell of lots of lefties. When they talk on their blogs, or over drinks, they're all completely certain that there should be some way to stop us, and they "know" we're dangerous. The price of a free society is that these guys can practice all they want, but until they DO something that initiates force against someone else, they have every right to do what they're doing. By recognizing the principle that protects them, we protect ourselves.

I hate racism, but I don't think the law should outlaw even the ugliest racial speech. If you start picking and choosing, eventually someone will be in charge who thinks what YOU do is dangerous and needs to be stopped. It's not about what enough people think, or who thinks it or does it. It's about natural born rights. They have every right to practice tactics, even if we believe they have bad intentions.

Now, if we can prove they're actively planning something - bust 'em. Until then, let's not trade freedom for security.

 

[dross]

Shooting a vaguely human shaped targets and showing people strangling others, building bombs and such are very different in my mind. I honestly don't know if these people are citizens here or not but if they aren't I don't think they should share the Rights that the rest of us have. So, do we wait for them to kill Americans because of their belief that it is what Allah wants? I guess I would just like to know a bit more about who they are.

Building bombs is illegal. If they were doing that, they would be breaking the law and law enforcement could bust them. Strangling? All over America, there are martial arts students learning techniques that can be used to strangle someone.

Are you saying non-citizens should have no rights? Or do you just want to revisit which rights they have?

Overheard at a fictional Manhattan cocktail party, "What, do we just wait for those inbred Indiana rednecks who have all those guns they don't need to kill someone?"

Again, the price of a free society is that we can't stop people who haven't yet done anything wrong, even if it looks scary to us.

 

[jeremy]

Shooting a vaguely human shaped targets and showing people strangling others, building bombs and such are very different in my mind. I honestly don't know if these people are citizens here or not but if they aren't I don't think they should share the Rights that the rest of us have. So, do we wait for them to kill Americans because of their belief that it is what Allah wants? I guess I would just like to know a bit more about who they are.

All over the US there are people shooting vaguely shaped human targets.
All over the US there are poeple attending martial training learning to strangle others.
All over the US are people going to school learning how to make bombs.

I just don't really see the problem.

 

[haldir]

I think the problem is that they are affiliated with an organization that is terrorist in nature. They are at war with us. Our government is giving aid and comfort to the enemy by allowing these groups to exist in our territory. When we have had groups/militias in this country that have espoused too much anti-government rhetoric, the government has found ways to put them out of business one way or another. If they can shoot, burn out or dummy up cases against American citizens why are they afraid to pursue foreign groups.

 

[Annie Oakley]

I have a problem with non-citizens who are given every protection that American's have when they are here to do us harm. Did you look at the video? Maybe I get blinded by the dress of the participants, I try not to be a bigot but sometimes it comes out in these situations. Not a pleasant thing for me to admit to myself.

Was it right for the rancher in AZ to be taken to court and to "owe" illegals that he caught? Was it right that a drug dealer be flown back from Mexico by the government to testify against two border guards? We are so busy trying to protect the "rights" of those who would harm us that we open the doors to all sorts of people who should not be here.

Maybe these particular people are doing nothing more than any of us do when we take a martial arts class or get together for a day of shooting. I just think that given the ties that they apparently have they should be looked at closely. I just really feel like we have let our guard down and that many people, not necessarily any of you, have just gone back to sleep after having been awakened a short time after September 11.

 

[Pami]

Annie Oakley,

Just clarify (CMA, basically), I used Gunsite as an example because it was the first large training facility that came to mind, not necessarily that there are NO differences between that facility and the facilities in this news clip. I haven't ever been to a training hosted by Gunsite, nor I have I really looked very closely at their classes. I just know that they're relatively well-known for civilian training courses and that people could create an easy correllation to what I wanted to demonstrate.

I can say that I have looked in to force-on-force training, where you shoot at more than just vaguely human-shaped paper targets. I've seen videos posted on this site that show police officers training by shooting from behind a car door.

If the gentleman who did this research on these camps is to be believed, the LEOs he spoke with did say they are watching the camps very closely. So, if they haven't caught them doing anything illegal yet, then what makes them different other than their target market?

I'm at work and can't put a lot of effort into this response yet, but I believe your brother's comments addressed most of my concerns (please thank him for me). I'll check back in later when I get home tonight.

 

[Annie Oakley]

Pami, first off, I hope you didn't take offense to my brother naming you. He knows that we communicate and that I respect you and your opinions, you are a very smart woman.

I have taken the police training courses but I don't think that they are a fair comparison to this situation. The police are the ones out on the line against BG's. I don't even have a problem with the average citizen doing this sort of training with personal protection in mind.

When people are affiliated with a known terrorist group that changes everything. I am not saying that the people in the video are, but it sure seems to point that way. Having LE keeping an eye on them is a good thing.

My brother and I see things in a very similar way and he sometimes is more eloquent than I am and I will pass along the message to him. Like I said, there is something about the "look" of the participants in this video that disturbs me......that is my bias. I would feel no different about them if they were white supremacists. Hate groups are very different in my mind than people wanting to be able to protect themselves, family and their country.