Homegrown Jihad

[RogerB]

Pami, first off, I hope you didn't take offense to my brother naming you. He knows that we communicate and that I respect you and your opinions, you are a very smart woman.

I have taken the police training courses but I don't think that they are a fair comparison to this situation. The police are the ones out on the line against BG's. I don't even have a problem with the average citizen doing this sort of training with personal protection in mind.

When people are affiliated with a known terrorist group that changes everything. I am not saying that the people in the video are, but it sure seems to point that way. Having LE keeping an eye on them is a good thing.

My brother and I see things in a very similar way and he sometimes is more eloquent than I am and I will pass along the message to him. Like I said, there is something about the "look" of the participants in this video that disturbs me......that is my bias. I would feel no different about them if they were white supremacists. Hate groups are very different in my mind than people wanting to be able to protect themselves, family and their country.

AO I think you nailed it right there... Hate groups grown from or masked by the "Religious Belief" system that is protected by our Constitution. They are training to commit crimes against humanity. The other "training camps" mentioned are based in a self defensive postion.

To me they are training to commit crimes of hatred plain and simple. Last time I heard, hate crimes are pretty illegal. We may just be watching them, waiting for them to tip their hand or commit one. (hopefully not the committing part)

 

[Pami]

AO, no offense taken. Just .. cautious. Things tend to flare up pretty quickly here, and I didn't want that idea taken too far out of hand.

I, too, think you nailed it with the hate crimes reference. ANY hate group with a training camp should be closely watched, but I still can't find an official justification for shutting them down until they actually DO something. I have other arguments that could stem off from that, but I think I'm willing to hang this one up. I just didn't want to see this thread turn into a "We should shut these down!" bandwagon without giving consideration to the fact that any excuse used to shut them down could also shut down legitimate self-defense training facilities as well. And THAT is a scary thought.

 

[SavageEagle]

Do you think this site is being watched as closely then?

I mean we talk about our hatred for tyranny, obamatard, and many other things on a daily basis. At one point we even discussed a "home" and training camp of our own at one time. While it may have been 99% sarcastic, I do remember the thread vividly.

As far as these terror-camps go, I think they should leave them open. Yes I said it. Let them train. Let them make bombs. Let them learn 1 million ways to kill a man with a rubber band! Yes. I said it. You know why I said it? Because I'm a total complete idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about. Well, actually, I think I may be thinking the same thing the FBI/CIA/MI/NSA/(insert intellegence agency here) is thinking.

If we allow them to come here and train, what better way to keep track of them. It's hard enough to keep a sat over top of them in foriegn lands, ****, they're on our soil now. If we want to fly a predator overhead all day everyday at 30k feet, what are they gonna do? They won't even know it! we eye them, watch them as they leave, catch them in the act.... see where I'm going with this?

I like Pami's brother's take on this. There is a big difference between them and us. We're not trying to train to mass-murder people when we go. They are.

Just my

 

[Pami]

I like Pami's brother's take on this. There is a big difference between them and us. We're not trying to train to mass-murder people when we go. They are.

Just my

Annie Oakley's brother, not mine. I have three sisters. No brothers.

 

[SavageEagle]

Oh, well....

<------- Heee Hawwww Heeeee Hawwwwwwww

Pami's, Annie's, whoever. He's a smart guy....

 

[finity]

I agree completely with Pami, dross & SE's take on this.

Its easy to say "if you're a terrorist you have no rights", but...who gets to decide who the terrorists are? Their point is, I think, that we could easily be labeled the 'terrorists'.

If they are doing something illegal, stop/arrest them. Until then they have the same rights as anyone else.

I don't however agree with some of the others who say that non-citizens have no rights.

The American system of government is based on the Constitution & the Bill of Rights. How many have said that the Constitution & BoR does not 'give' rights but only enumerates specific rights, as granted by XXX (take your pick; god, nature, whatever), that we believe are the most important to our 'life, liberty & the pursuit of happiness". And those enumerated rights are not even all the rights we have according to that same document.

Those rights are endowed on every human being from birth. They are natural rights that are not dependent on where you are born or whether your government acknowledges those rights. Why else do we condemn other countries for human rights abuses or launch military exercises against other sovereign powers just to protect the rights of the inhabitants of those lands? We do that because, no matter if they live under our Constitution or not, we believe that they have the same rights as we do as humans.

That is, until they (whoever 'they' are) might have acted in some way that offends our 'sensibilities' or is contrary to our particular sub-culture even if it doesn't rise to the level of being 'illegal' - as in 'harming others'. (Even if someone has done something illegal, they still have all those rights until being convicted. Even after they have been convicted they still have most rights). Liberals do it, conservatives do it, even the libertarians have fallen into the trap of saying 'if they're not citizens, they have no rights'. We can't have it both ways. Either rights are inaliable(sp?) or they're not. In which case the BoR can be effectively made null & void.

Freedom of speech, religion, self-defense & due process are all rights that every person has regardless of if they live in a country that says they do or not. We're just lucky enough to have a Constitution that lays it out in B&W.

We need to remember the adage, "I don't like what you are saying, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".

I will say it again so nobody misses (or misrepresents) it - If they cross the line into harming others or that is proven to be imminent then by all means they should have the full weight of the law brought to bear on them.

 

[techres]

Do you think this site is being watched as closely then?

Watched, certainly. Closely, maybe. As closely, certainly not.

I mean we talk about our hatred for tyranny, obamatard, and many other things on a daily basis. At one point we even discussed a "home" and training camp of our own at one time. While it may have been 99% sarcastic, I do remember the thread vividly.

And there is the abyss standing before you. You have every right to step into it, bathe in it, but at some point you will be sucked up by it.

As far as these terror-camps go, I think they should leave them open. Yes I said it. Let them train. Let them make bombs. Let them learn 1 million ways to kill a man with a rubber band! Yes. I said it. You know why I said it? Because I'm a total complete idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about. Well, actually, I think I may be thinking the same thing the FBI/CIA/MI/NSA/(insert intellegence agency here) is thinking.

If we allow them to come here and train, what better way to keep track of them. It's hard enough to keep a sat over top of them in foriegn lands, ****, they're on our soil now. If we want to fly a predator overhead all day everyday at 30k feet, what are they gonna do? They won't even know it! we eye them, watch them as they leave, catch them in the act.... see where I'm going with this?

I like Pami's brother's take on this. There is a big difference between them and us. We're not trying to train to mass-murder people when we go. They are.

Just my

I would be similar to you in this: let them do all that is legal so that we may do the same. Frankly, I think people should be able to blow up their own possessions if they want and play with bombs too as long as they stay on their own property.

Have an FBI member standing at every exit taking notes, fly your helo's, etc. But guys, these fears and laws were what took the militia movement and put it on the watch lists and began the arrests.

Sure, you can play the game of defensive training vs. offensive training, and I know that distinction well, but really you should be able to do all that is legal and training is just that. They want to watch youtube butchery, so are college students - all day long. They want to study how to make a pipe bomb, well... ummm... you been to a gun show and bought any books lately?

The silly rule of thumb that I have been taught is that you can offensive train, carry guns, and wear cammo. Do any two at the same time and you are ok, just don't do all three at the same time. That seems to hold true in real life, and it is a bunch of bunk as well.

I have a trunk with literature that the FBI once labelled terrorist (copies of the Constitution and Bill of Rights), add to that a rifle and a cammo BOB and for some people that trunk is a terrorist cache. We cannot allow the content of the writings and the color of a backpack to determine illegality because we will all be for the gallows then as it were. Actions are what make illegality, not thoughts, not training. The rules need to be clear and the same for all. Otherwise, frankly, we will only be crafting our own coffins.

 

[BloodEclipse]

What is missing here is, they are breaking the law. I can't find the story at the moment but, it seems that a majority of those who engage in training are felons who have just been released from prison. They are members of the Muslim Brotherhood. These individuals are prohibited to use firearms.

 

[ggglobert9]

Anybody remember the days of having a subscription to "Soldier of Fortune" got you put on an FBI watch list? I used to subscribe! Go to a terrorist training camp and not being a citizen...hmmm seems like they have more rights than me?

 

[Annie Oakley]

I think all of you make good points. My bottom line is that we can't keep track of anyone in this country it seems unless they are a citizen. Think of the number of aliens who go missing on a regular basis here. Because of that, it just makes me extremely nervous. When someone shows the signs of doing harm to my country and fellow citizens my mind sort of snaps shut. In theory I believe we all have unalienable Rights, it is just hard to watch some of these groups and not be worried. I appreciate all the points of view and will continue to use those points to try to hone my beliefs.

 

[CarmelHP]

Are they training with the stated purpose to commit a crime with the intent to advance the ability to commit the crime? If so, then they've already "done something." Inchoate crimes are prosecutable.

 

[HICKMAN]

Are they training with the stated purpose to commit a crime with the intent to advance the ability to commit the crime? If so, then they've already "done something." Inchoate crimes are prosecutable.

Guess that would be in the eye of the beholder....

They can be training for various "scenarios" and be perfactly legit and within their rights. Just because we don't like it, doesn't make it illegal.

Don't you hate it when they use our own rules against us? Know thy enemy is a common saying among the military.... to bad our government doesn't get it.

Our enemy knows us all to well, ala Paper Tiger speech by bin Laden. When the limp-noodles on the left are exposed again, we're going to take more losses here at home.

It still amazes me these clowns act like 9-11 never happened.

 

[dburkhead]

The possible avenue is via criminal conspiracy. For that, as I understand it (IANAL, TINLA) that requires two components: an agreement between two or more people to commit a crime and one or more of the people making some overt act toward commission of the agreed-on crime. The act does not have to be itself illegal.

Both aspects have to be proven in court--that the agreement was made and that someone in the group did something toward commiting the crime.