Gun v Knife

[ajeandy]

[video=youtube;aDPlWAq-11I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDPlWAq-11I[/video]

 

[ajeandy]

Death by knife

[video=youtube;3-YK31by5i0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-YK31by5i0[/video]

 

[smccabe17]

After doing ECQC with only a pistol, I now carry a knife all the time.

 

[GIJEW]

That backwards roll by 'zero' was impressive, but I wonder about the possibility of Marcaida jumping on him with his knife? I guess I need to subscribe.

 

[rhino]

Italian people and Filipino people are fun!

 

[Vigilant]

After doing ECQC with only a pistol, I now carry a knife all the time.

Yup! How many hits did you take trying to draw your gun before you fought off the attack?

 

[rhino]

As time moves on, I have more respect for Instructor Zero than I did initially when I saw his early videos.

Given that, while the rolling and dropping tactics seemed to work in the video (I only watched the first part), I think they presuppose that getting rounds on the target is going to end the hostility. It's definitely good to get rounds into an attacker as quickly as possible - especially before they close enough to cut you - but that might not stop them. If it does, you win. If it doesn't, you've just greatly reduced your mobility and it's not going to take much for a determined attacker to adjust to the tactic and reorient to a supine victim. That may not be a huge issue for someone like Zero, but for most of us (especially me), it's probably not a viable option.

 

[cosermann]

After doing ECQC with only a pistol, I now carry a knife all the time.

What's the rationale? (Genuinely interested.)

 

[Onionsanddragons]

A small blade is MUCH easier to deploy and use in a clinch/ground situation than a gun. It is also reliable as to repeat use when compared to a gun (contact shooting induces malfunctions a LOT).

One of the big reasons is to compliment firearm retention. If my dominant hand is hindered because I am keeping a forearm or elbow lock on my firearm, I can deploy a small knife with my support hand to create space or establish a dominant position to transition from.

The bottom line is that guns are just hard to use when the fight has already started up in your face.

 

[mike46060]

The bottom line is that guns are just hard to use when the fight has already started up in your face.

None the less it is something good to be mindful of.

 

[SSGSAD]

I don't know if it is true, or not, but I was always told, if you bring a gun to a knife fight,

YOU, are going to get cut .....

 

[The Professor]

If I may interject here, and I do realize I'm new to the forums, we have to keep an eye on the realistic. How often do "knife fights" occur? I'm not talking about gang fights or prison/jail incidents. I mean honest, mano-a-mano, unchoreographed, squared-off knife fights?

They happen about as often as old-west-style one-on-one gunfights/duels. Not using this as THE definitive collection of real-life incidents, but go look at YouTube and pull up videos of real knife attacks.

Having a Kali/escrima expert attack you is frightening. Once he goes into a replicating flowdrill that he's (or she's) practiced tens of thousands of times, yeah, he's going to slice and dice you. Even against another kali expert, both fighters are going to walk away looking like they tried to tongue-kiss a giant shredder.

While videos like this are cool to watch and do the job they were made to do (frighten and scare and make you feel as if your training was incomplete or incapable of dealing with this scenario), they're about as realistic as my chances of a date with Jessica Alba (unless she likes bald, old, broke guys).

Truth is, there is no real "perfect" defense against such an attack save for situational awareness.

This is about as ridiculous a scenario as one where you walk into the bathroom of the local mall and some gang-banger steps out with a pair of MAC10's with extended magazines and opens up at 2290 rounds per minute on you after the door closes behind you (that's 1145 rpm x 2). How do you deal with that? (Get off the X, draw and shoot two to the body, one to the head and one to the pelvic region, right?)

You're more likely to be ambushed, criminal-style (guy gets close, indexes on you by putting the non-weapon hand on some part of your body, and underhand-stabbed repeatedly until you go down or he/she gets in 3 or 4 stabs and then disengages/runs away). Again, you can go to YouTube for examples of real-world knife attacks caught on surveillance cameras.

Learn how to deal with realistic scenarios. Use your Situational Awareness skills to avoid the 30-year-plus practicing Kali fighter sitting in the corner with his pair of Balisongs and bad attitudes. Don't wait for the guy to get close to you. Learn basic close-quarters defensive knife skills that allow you to transition from empty-hand to weapon when you can.

If all else fails, put your testosterone in your pocket and run like a friggin 12-year old girl. We may laugh at you, but you'll be alive to keep feeding your loved ones.

The Professor

 

[cosermann]

A small blade is MUCH easier to deploy and use in a clinch/ground situation than a gun. It is also reliable as to repeat use when compared to a gun (contact shooting induces malfunctions a LOT).

One of the big reasons is to compliment firearm retention. If my dominant hand is hindered because I am keeping a forearm or elbow lock on my firearm, I can deploy a small knife with my support hand to create space or establish a dominant position to transition from.

The bottom line is that guns are just hard to use when the fight has already started up in your face.

All good points, and I get it. Used to carry a knife on the support side for this purpose/reasons.

At some point though, I transitioned to a BUG (revolver) on the support side. Seems easier to deploy having a larger "handle" to get a hold of than most knives. And can continue to be used if things open up beyond arm's reach.

I'm always open to being convinced a knife would be a better option for this purpose. Advantages/disadvantages?

 

[iChokePeople]

^^. I kind of like this guy.

I clicked on this expecting something that started with "I'd just...", and was pleasantly surprised. I do think we need to figure out some options for when SA alone doesn't get 'er done, but that was a good post.

ETA: I like cosermann, too, but was talking about the guy above him, before he sniped me.

 

[The Professor]

All good points, and I get it. Used to carry a knife on the support side for this purpose/reasons.


I'm always open to being convinced a knife would be a better option for this purpose. Advantages/disadvantages?

I'm always open to being convinced a knife would be a better option for this purpose. Advantages/disadvantages?

Consider the common choke hold. Bad Guy has you locked in, you're trying to pull down with one hand, desperately following The Book's instructions on trying to alleviate even the tiniest pressure on your larynx and the blood vessels on either side of the stem that holds up your noggin'.

Just for fun, have a partner get you in this position. . .a fully-locked down rear naked choke. Even with your firearm in one hand, it's going to be difficult shooting Bad Guy off of you, especially with your vision slowly going all black and fuzzy.

Yet, even with the smallest pocket knife, you can quickly and effectively sever the Triceps Brachii, the Brachioradialis the Extensor Carpi Radialis Longus, both the Medial and Lateral Epicondyle of Humerus, the Olecranon of the Ulna and both the Extensor and Flexor Carpi Ulnaris with as little as two, quick strokes. With any luck, you may get the Brachial Artery and Nerve, as well. Suddenly, it becomes VERY difficult for Bad Guy to Continue Choking you.

Change that to an encounter with Brazilian Jiu-Jutsu Bad Guy who gets you in a triangle or armbar trapping your shooting hand/arm. A little 'snick' a little slice to the hamstring or up into the knee"pit". . . .maybe poke around at his "backdoor" a bit. . .start carving up his hamhocks and Mr. Gracie wanna be decides he's had enough.

Even something as little as a Spyderco Delica or Gerber EAB (a personal favorite of mine. . .basically, it's a folding box-cutter) will have you tenderizing meat almost as fast as a Chinese Chef.

A small defensive knife can open up a lot of doors in the right hands with a little practice

The Professor

 

[jdhaines]

This video was posted a few years ago and I got so fed up with the discussion at the time that I drove over to Kodiak and had Will help me make the video below. It was two years and a bunch of pounds ago, but it still holds up. I will say that this time around I'm much more hopeful and happy about the discussions which are taking place.

[video=youtube;6LuAyg9MTWg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LuAyg9MTWg[/video]

 

[Kutnupe14]

One thing to consider, is that you can engage as soon as you see the knife. But honestly, why would a legit knife fighter show his hand before closing the distance?

 

[Dean C.]

Consider the common choke hold. Bad Guy has you locked in, you're trying to pull down with one hand, desperately following The Book's instructions on trying to alleviate even the tiniest pressure on your larynx and the blood vessels on either side of the stem that holds up your noggin'.

Just for fun, have a partner get you in this position. . .a fully-locked down rear naked choke. Even with your firearm in one hand, it's going to be difficult shooting Bad Guy off of you, especially with your vision slowly going all black and fuzzy.

Yet, even with the smallest pocket knife, you can quickly and effectively sever the Triceps Brachii, the Brachioradialis the Extensor Carpi Radialis Longus, both the Medial and Lateral Epicondyle of Humerus, the Olecranon of the Ulna and both the Extensor and Flexor Carpi Ulnaris with as little as two, quick strokes. With any luck, you may get the Brachial Artery and Nerve, as well. Suddenly, it becomes VERY difficult for Bad Guy to Continue Choking you.

Change that to an encounter with Brazilian Jiu-Jutsu Bad Guy who gets you in a triangle or armbar trapping your shooting hand/arm. A little 'snick' a little slice to the hamstring or up into the knee"pit". . . .maybe poke around at his "backdoor" a bit. . .start carving up his hamhocks and Mr. Gracie wanna be decides he's had enough.

Even something as little as a Spyderco Delica or Gerber EAB (a personal favorite of mine. . .basically, it's a folding box-cutter) will have you tenderizing meat almost as fast as a Chinese Chef.

A small defensive knife can open up a lot of doors in the right hands with a little practice

The Professor

Just a quick demonstration of how an knife can be used to defeat an attacker coming from behind. Also another fantastic reason to consider a knife with the Emerson Wave opener on it for defensive use as it is the fastest deploying opening method around. The guy being attacked in the video is Ernest Emerson owner and founder of Emerson Knives
[video=youtube;b6yqtE3_uRc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6yqtE3_uRc[/video]

 

[The Professor]

Just a quick demonstration of how an knife can be used to defeat an attacker coming from behind. Also another fantastic reason to consider a knife with the Emerson Wave opener on it for defensive use as it is the fastest deploying opening method around. The guy being attacked in the video is Ernest Emerson owner and founder of Emerson Knives

As a person who has studied modern pocket-knife techniques, including deployment, for over five years (Michael Janich's Martial Blade Concepts learned from his oldest student), I wholeheartedly agree with the Wave concept. . .HOWEVER:

Do not count on that Wave opening your knive every time. Under stress, it's easy to pull the knife and "miss" the catch on the blade. Be ready to utilize a manual opening method, including one-handed, just in case.

This is akin to practicing a one-handed semi-auto pistol slide-rack. You gotta know how and practice before you need it.

The Professor

 

[BehindBlueI's]

If I may interject here, and I do realize I'm new to the forums, we have to keep an eye on the realistic. How often do "knife fights" occur? I'm not talking about gang fights or prison/jail incidents. I mean honest, mano-a-mano, unchoreographed, squared-off knife fights?

Nearly never. In roughly 10 years in LE, I've yet to see what I would call an actual knife fight. I've seen gun vs knife, knife vs unarmed, and plenty of stabbings but an actual knife fight? I can't think of one.

Knives are great...and they suck. Nearly every cut is relying on a psychological stop. With bullets we all get "shot placement" or it's a psychological stop until they bleed out. I don't see many stabs to the CNS. If you can cut tendons in the hand or something, sure, physical stop. The one really physical stop I can think of lately was a self defense stabbing where the victim slashed the suspect's belly and the suspect's intestines started to roll out, preoccupying him a bit. Knives are pretty effective and psychological stops, though, the human brain fears it on a more intuitively level than a gun. However someone who fights anyway, you've got a problem. I've talked to guys in the ER with multiple slash wounds who didn't realize they were cut during the fight. The adrenaline counteracted the pain and had little to no affect on the fight.

Personally, I am not a fan of knives for self defense. I believe they require more training to be good with, they are less effective, and suspect that they are less pleasant for jurors if your self defense is questionable and goes to trial. IF you are TRULY good with a knife, then it's like any other self defense tool, you have options that most people don't have. Personally, I'd rather put that training time into firearms or unarmed defense. As I get older, I may look more into stick fighting. A cane fighter is a force to be reckoned with when TRULY good at it.