Florida school Shooting

[frenchiectfd2203]

Well no, they either start sooner or wait longer.

How long did the columbine douche bags work on the plan.

Im just stating what they said on the news brother. Just doesn’t make sense to me.

 

[ddenny5]

Sports would not change any. I know some folks that homeschool there children.

 

[churchmouse]

Im just stating what they said on the news brother. Just doesn’t make sense to me.

Or me. My point was in direct response to this idiocy.

 

[Kokomo1]

I think we are a long way from arming teachers in public schools in Indiana.

Federal courthouses have set a pretty good example on building security. You are not going to come in and leave through multiple unlocked doors; anyone entering the building is going to be met by armed professionals at the door; anyone entering is going to walk through a metal detector; anyone entering is going to have everything they carry in searched; etc.

Schools with thousands of students are going to need to build the security measures to scale, but it is an issue of money...not an issue of it can't be done.

It is all but impossible to have a security checkpoint and metal detectors even if unlimited money was available. Do you rescreen students who leave for recess, marching band class, outdoor PE, working in the biology greenhouse, or the many other things outside? What about during practices and events after school (or occasionally before) or on Saturday? Who handles screening students returning from an away game at 10:30 at night or band that rolls in at 2 AM from a long day at contests? What about that teacher who comes in on Sunday afternoon to do some classroom prep and brings their son or daughter? It just cannot be done...

 

[jkdbjj]

It is all but impossible to have a security checkpoint and metal detectors even if unlimited money was available. Do you rescreen students who leave for recess, marching band class, outdoor PE, working in the biology greenhouse, or the many other things outside? What about during practices and events after school (or occasionally before) or on Saturday? Who handles screening students returning from an away game at 10:30 at night or band that rolls in at 2 AM from a long day at contests? What about that teacher who comes in on Sunday afternoon to do some classroom prep and brings their son or daughter? It just cannot be done...

Some places are already doing it: https://www.usnews.com/news/best-st...ol-using-metal-detectors-after-fatal-shooting

Have there been any reports of a teacher coming in on Sunday to work...murdering students??

Here is the thing---if you want security you will give up doing business the way it is done now. The first question that has to be answered is do schools need to be secure from these threats? If so, things are going to change.

 

[AJMD429]

There's really no point in discussing what kind of matches are legal to buy, or how fast the fire department gets to the scene, IF YOU ARE UNWILLING TO ALLOW POSSESSION OF FIRE EXTINGUISHERS.

In other words, if we aren't willing to allow CCW on the part of adults on the scene as teachers, janitors, or other employees, or even visiting parents, which would put the 'fire' out before it caused as much damage, fretting about response tactics and time frames, or what sort of rules we expect mass-murderers to obey when it comes to obtaining their weapons, we are really just wasting our time....

 

[ddenny5]

That is a good point. I don't agree that teachers don't have the fortitude to be armed in class. If they cannot handle a firearm and get ongoing training they why are they allowed to teach children in the first place. Teachers that will be armed will have to train just like law enforcement. I'm sure local police would be willing to issue the firearm and train any teacher.

 

[rhino]

Some places are already doing it: https://www.usnews.com/news/best-st...ol-using-metal-detectors-after-fatal-shooting

Have there been any reports of a teacher coming in on Sunday to work...murdering students??

Here is the thing---if you want security you will give up doing business the way it is done now. The first question that has to be answered is do schools need to be secure from these threats? If so, things are going to change.

If you want the building to be secure ever, you'd have to make it secure at any time anyone may enter the building. If you let people come and go after hours or on weekends, you can't control what they bring and leave in the building. You also have to allow zero people to bypass security and anyone who is allowed to enter with weapons (i.e. LEO) would have to have them when they leave too.

 

[jkdbjj]

If you want the building to be secure ever, you'd have to make it secure at any time anyone may enter the building. If you let people come and go after hours or on weekends, you can't control what they bring and leave in the building. You also have to allow zero people to bypass security and anyone who is allowed to enter with weapons (i.e. LEO) would have to have them when they leave too.

The argument can be made that no building where people come and go can ever be truly secure from certain items (cell phones / drugs in prison). I get it. Perhaps there has been or will be a teacher that brings a rifle to school on Sunday to do murder on Monday...but that is not currently the problem...and that argument would cut against arming teachers during school. Could one flip out and start shooting? Honestly, the probability is so low as to be a waste of time to discuss, imho.

When people get serious about school security they are going to look at other places that are reasonably secure...and follow what has worked, maybe add to it. It may be that the days of outside recess are over; the days of bands rolling in at 2AM and getting access to the school are over; etc. Right now...the security level in many schools is pretty pathetic by any standard...that is what needs to be addressed.

 

[boljr01]

It's apparently not true.

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/23572/Default.aspx

Guns are very restricted in Israel and only soldiers and the the police have them.

Don't believe that source is credible. They passed legislation after the 1974 Ma'alot massacre:
"When terrorists attacked a school in Maalot in 1974, Israel did not declare every school a gun-free zone. It passed a law mandating armed security in schools, provided weapons training to teachers and today runs frequent active shooter drills. There have been only two school shootings since then, and both have ended with teachers killing the terrorists. "

And they relaxed their gun laws to encourage more to carry after another attack in 2015:
"When the knife intifada erupted in September 2015, the Israeli government's response was to ease the process for the civilian populace to obtain weapons. After a particularly bloody Jerusalem shooting attack that killed four, then-Public Security Minister Gilad Erdan drastically changed the gun laws in order to significantly raise the number of armed civilians on the streets."

 

[churchmouse]

Don't believe that source is credible. They passed legislation after the 1974 Ma'alot massacre:
"When terrorists attacked a school in Maalot in 1974, Israel did not declare every school a gun-free zone. It passed a law mandating armed security in schools, provided weapons training to teachers and today runs frequent active shooter drills. There have been only two school shootings since then, and both have ended with teachers killing the terrorists. "

And they relaxed their gun laws to encourage more to carry after another attack in 2015:
"When the knife intifada erupted in September 2015, the Israeli government's response was to ease the process for the civilian populace to obtain weapons. After a particularly bloody Jerusalem shooting attack that killed four, then-Public Security Minister Gilad Erdan drastically changed the gun laws in order to significantly raise the number of armed civilians on the streets."

Smart man.

 

[Kutnupe14]

That is a good point. I don't agree that teachers don't have the fortitude to be armed in class. If they cannot handle a firearm and get ongoing training they why are they allowed to teach children in the first place. Teachers that will be armed will have to train just like law enforcement. I'm sure local police would be willing to issue the firearm and train any teacher.

Because they're educators, not soldiers? I'm of the opinion, that you don't force a gun into anyone's hand...
And I doubt LE would be so willing to issue firearms and train teachers. I can't think of any PD that would want that type of liability. Most would probably say no, and kick that nonsense to the city/county/state. That way if they're forced to do so, they have someone to throw under the bus when there's a "mishap."

 

[K_W]

Because they're educators, not soldiers? I'm of the opinion, that you don't force a gun into anyone's hand...
And I doubt LE would be so willing to issue firearms and train teachers. I can't think of any PD that would want that type of liability. Most would probably say no, and kick that nonsense to the city/county/state. That way if they're forced to do so, they have someone to throw under the bus when there's a "mishap."

Nobody has proposed forcing teachers to carry, it's allowing them to carry if they have chosen to and received training and permission from the school board.

I was in 8th grade when Columbine happened... many of my teachers were former soldiers and likely would have chosen to carry if the option was made available at the time.

 

[2A_Tom]

Because they're educators, not soldiers? I'm of the opinion, that you don't force a gun into anyone's hand...
And I doubt LE would be so willing to issue firearms and train teachers. I can't think of any PD that would want that type of liability. Most would probably say no, and kick that nonsense to the city/county/state. That way if they're forced to do so, they have someone to throw under the bus when there's a "mishap."

I agree.

Most LE organizations have auxiliaries and they are trained and armed. imagine a program.

• Volunteer
• Training provided by police.
• Continuing training in Force on force.
• Continuing firearms qualification.
• Stipend depending on level of continuing training.

 

[jkdbjj]

"Training provided by police."

Depends on the training the police have that are expected to do the training. Some police would be great as trainers, others...well, some would be great. I do agree with the point of your post though.

 

[2A_Tom]

What I meant was the same training that the auxiliaries get.

 

[BangBang]

I know we can't put an Officer in every classroom, However....

Unless you're gonna put a cop in every room of the school there are going to be casualties. It doesn't take long to kill 17 people. I'm surprised the numbers aren't higher when these things happen. The bigger issue is how was a non current student able to gain access to the school and get firearms inside. There's your big problem, other than having a lunatic that wants to kill people of course.

....I have been a proponent for years for teachers (that are willing) to be trained to protect the kids. Firearms could be kept locked in a safe that would quickly open with a fingerprint or code.
It beats not being able to have a fighting chance to save some lives.
I know, I know---there are a lot of levels to make this work. But it makes a lot of sense and would be one of the lower cost options.
One or 2 security guards can't protect that many rooms/kids.

Also, what do you think of increased security for each room? Heavy doors, and some sort of bar-mechanism or door-stops to keep intruders from accessing room to room once shots are heard.

Run, Hide or Fight.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I agree.

Most LE organizations have auxiliaries and they are trained and armed. imagine a program.

• Volunteer
• Training provided by police.
• Continuing training in Force on force.
• Continuing firearms qualification.
• Stipend depending on level of continuing training.

LE agencies accept the liability in training those persons, and heaven forbid someone messes up, they are named in the subsequent lawsuits.

 

[jkdbjj]

Florida school security video on 20-30 minute delay...

Florida school's security cameras had nearly half hour delay, causing lag in capturing gunman, report shows | Fox News

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Unless you're gonna put a cop in every room of the school there are going to be casualties. It doesn't take long to kill 17 people. I'm surprised the numbers aren't higher when these things happen. The bigger issue is how was a non current student able to gain access to the school and get firearms inside. There's your big problem, other than having a lunatic that wants to kill people of course.

Pull fire alarm, now hallways are full of targets. You're right, it doesn't take long.

I still can't fathom how non-students, or anyone, is allowed entry to a school during school hours. That feels like the primary point of failure here. Fobs, lock doors, only teachers and staff can open in morning/evening, assign armed professionals at these entry points.

Problem 99% solved. Yeah things will still happen, but it seems like this would prevent the majority.

Edit: This is probably fine for elementary and middle school, where the students are typically supervised.

I entered and left my high school at all hours of the day because I had a unique schedule. I'd drive in around lunchtime occasionally, and I'd leave early/late depending on classes. Lock maybe just from outside-in... instead of inside-out. Two doors so someone outside can't sneak in.