Elkhart Police Detain Andrew Champ for legally carrying

[steveh_131]

They ascertained that the suspect was legally carrying as required by the state legislature.

So in other words, "No".

 

[BehindBlueI's]

They have to have probable cause to stop you.

Reasonable suspicion, actually.

 

[stephen87]

Reasonable suspicion, actually.

Reasonable articulable suspicion, actually.

 

[lucky4034]

They ascertained that the suspect was legally carrying as required by the state legislature.

Suspected guilty until proven innocent.

Next time I decide to open some mail... I'll be waiting for a LEO to slap handcuffs on me and demand my I.D. to prove its mine so he can be sure I'm not committing a federal offense.

 

[Trigger Time]

The relevant langauge from IC 35-47-2-1(b)(2)(A) is "has the consent of the owner". It does not require a written document, or indeed, a physical artifact of consent in any fashion. The owner merely calling out to the police saying, "I gave him consent to carry in here." should have utterly short-circuited their JBTery.

Thanks for clarifying that. However I dot agree with your "JBTery" opinion. I think they kept it professional, plus they were doing their job according to the law.

Hopefully all of you will join me and people like BOR and be writing your state reps over the summer and winter to introduce legislation the next session that eliminates the need to posses a Indiana license to carry in order to carry a pistol in our great state. This is being done in many other states and Indiana is usually a pioneer in taking back our gun rights, so lets all at least agree and act on this issue.
If they get a multitude of letters and emails I know we will be able to get rid of the wrongful tax and permission slip to protect our lives on the streets.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Curious about the extent of "consent of the owner".

Does the fact that BW3 serves me food, and allows me to sit at their bar qualify as unspoken, understood consent?

 

[Trigger Time]

Suspected guilty until proven innocent.

Next time I decide to open some mail... I'll be waiting for a LEO to slap handcuffs on me and demand my I.D. to prove its mine so he can be sure I'm not committing a federal offense.

Wouldn't he have to call for federal backup first?

 

[Shibby575]

Someone in the know please correct me if I'm wrong. As I read current law, we are not required to have on our person our handgun permit. Just be liscenced to carry which they can check. Secondly I believe that the police have to have probable cause that you have or are comiting a crime to detain you. By carrying you are not committing a crime so they would need some sort of other suspicion of a crime. Not a lawyer here but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

 

[Trigger Time]

Curious about the extent of "consent of the owner".

Does the fact that BW3 serves me food, and allows me to sit at their bar qualify as unspoken, understood consent?

While I would like that to be the case and maybe it would be if you decided to take the ride with silver bracelets on and take it to court. But I'm almost certain that as soon as the cops showed up the manager and staff would almost certainly turn on you and act like you just clubbed a baby seal in their establishment, and form a line to the door applauding the police for saving their lives as they drag you towards your ride to get an orange jumpsuit.

Ok I might have exaggerated a little, but I bet they wouldn't back you or I.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Curious about the extent of "consent of the owner".

Does the fact that BW3 serves me food, and allows me to sit at their bar qualify as unspoken, understood consent?

I think you'd have a huge uphill battle to prove "unspoken understood" consent exists and applies for the purposes of 35-47-2-1. Simply overlooking something isn't the same as giving consent.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

While I would like that to be the case and maybe it would be if you decided to take the ride with silver bracelets on and take it to court. But I'm almost certain that as soon as the cops showed up the manager and staff would almost certainly turn on you and act like you just clubbed a baby seal in their establishment, and form a line to the door applauding the police for saving their lives as they drag you towards your ride to get an orange jumpsuit.

Ok I might have exaggerated a little, but I bet they wouldn't back you or I.

Well, the BW3 I go to... I'd bet the manager would step up and say "He's good." I mean, he's a bit young... but he's definitely pro-gun, pro-carry.

 

[Trigger Time]

Someone in the know please correct me if I'm wrong. As I read current law, we are not required to have on our person our handgun permit. Just be liscenced to carry which they can check. Secondly I believe that the police have to have probable cause that you have or are comiting a crime to detain you. By carrying you are not committing a crime so they would need some sort of other suspicion of a crime. Not a lawyer here but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

Ill direct you to Bill of Rights post.
In Indiana carrying a handgun is illegal until you present them your license to carry. Yes you do need to show proof or have them call I guess. You do not however have to show them your drivers license. Just the pink slip.

 

[Trigger Time]

Well, the BW3 I go to... I'd bet the manager would step up and say "He's good." I mean, he's a bit young... but he's definitely pro-gun, pro-carry.

That's the kind of places I like to spend my money at.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Someone in the know please correct me if I'm wrong. As I read current law, we are not required to have on our person our handgun permit. Just be liscenced to carry which they can check. Secondly I believe that the police have to have probable cause that you have or are comiting a crime to detain you. By carrying you are not committing a crime so they would need some sort of other suspicion of a crime. Not a lawyer here but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

Answer to most of there questions are already laid out in earlier posts in this thread.

1) You are no longer required to have your license on you.
2) The police can detain you for carrying a handgun, as the law stands now, and it is on you to provide an affirmative defense by showing you are licensed.
3) Probable cause is required for an arrest, not to detain. Reasonable suspicion is required to detain.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

articulable

Not a word. You lose.

 

[IndyBeerman]

Which outcome is better? Having the officer look at the LTCH and say "Thanks, have a nice day, sorry to have bothered you." or the episode that played out in the video.

The public is watching. Many of us OC because we want our communities to get used to seeing it. We would like it to be treated as normal. Every time one of these guys turns a simple encounter into a scene, we may look at it and say "good for you, way to stand firm", but the people watching are seeing it differently. They see a radical with a gun, unwilling to cooperate with law enforcement, and ask why. The answer they end up at is not "because they were standing up for their rights".

My grandfather used to ask me "What do you hope to achieve by the action you are about to take?". Let's think about what we ultimately want to accomplish....

^^^^^
This, above. Every example of this exact scenario played out above across the county does nothing to win over the people who on the fence about anti gun regulations.

While we must be good stewards of the 2A, we must also try to set good examples showing that we are not the droids that the Anti gun people try to make us put to be.

There's a line from the movie Hoosier's that sometimes is great for things like this....

Look, mister, there's... two kinds of dumb, uh... guy that gets naked and runs out in the snow and barks at the moon, and, uh, guy who does the same thing in my living room. First one don't matter, the second one you're kinda forced to deal with.

When we get people start showing their

like that, it makes us all look bad and we are forced to deal with it because it makes it harder to get non firearm people to understand.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Which outcome is better? Having the officer look at the LTCH and say "Thanks, have a nice day, sorry to have bothered you." or the episode that played out in the video.

Doesn't always happen that way. Some officers still push and lecture. The gun community is at the leasure of "Am I going to get a good cop, or a bad cop today?"

 

[stephen87]

Not a word. You lose.

Articulable - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

ar-tic-u-la-ble adjective \är-ˈti-kyə-lə-bəl\

: capable of being articulated




Is a word. Try again.

 

[CathyInBlue]

Articulable | Define Articulable at Dictionary.com


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/articulable

 

[Kev]

I keep hearing the comparison of the LTCH and a drivers license. Have any of you been pulled over for a tail light out and refused to present your drivers license when asked?

.....

The public is watching. Many of us OC because we want our communities to get used to seeing it. We would like it to be treated as normal. Every time one of these guys turns a simple encounter into a scene, we may look at it and say "good for you, way to stand firm", but the people watching are seeing it differently. They see a radical with a gun, unwilling to cooperate with law enforcement, and ask why. The answer they end up at is not "because they were standing up for their rights".

My grandfather used to ask me "What do you hope to achieve by the action you are about to take?". Let's think about what we ultimately want to accomplish....

I agree with IndyBeerman.. and enjoyed seeing this. Thank you NavyVet for these words... I think this drives the whole discussion home.

Show respect.... and you will be shown respect.
Do on to others as you would have them do on to you.
Etc.


Oh.. and thanks for your service!