Elkhart Police Detain Andrew Champ for legally carrying

[johnny45]

Open carriers..... The watchmen on the wall defending against the gradual encroachments against liberty by tyranny.

BTW, just how many LEOs does it take to check a license?

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Wonder how a LEO would respond to someone who is licensed but doesn't have it on his person.

They make you sit in a Subway booth while they call in your DL info and see if you're licensed, all the while lecturing you on how stupid OC is and berating you.

How do I know? Oh, no reason.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

They said that they have legal right to stop anyone open-carrying a handgun. This is false.

When they make mistakes, they need to be held accountable for them.

So, since you've been shown that they do have the legal right to require proof of a LTCH, I assume you agree you should also be held accountable and will apologize for providing false information.

As others have stated, if you don't like the way the law is currently worded, petition to change it. That's how the requirement to have the LTCH on your person was changed. Until it is changed, or case law that matters in Indiana changes, then the mistake will be yours in instances such as this.

 

[gdunn]

First one in

IC 35-47-2-1
Carrying a handgun without being licensed; exceptions; person convicted of domestic battery
Sec. 1. (a) Except as provided in subsections (b) and (c) and section 2 of this chapter, a person shall not carry a handgun in any vehicle or on or about the person's body without being licensed under this chapter to carry a handgun.

With that being said LEO have every right to stop you and ask to see your LTCH in the state of Indiana.

Thanks for another black eye for us that OC

This ends the thread IMO.

 

[gdunn]

They make you sit in a Subway booth while they call in your DL info and see if you're licensed, all the while lecturing you on how stupid OC is and berating you.

How do I know? Oh, no reason.

Then that absolutely sucks, doesn't change the fact you need to present evidence of lawful carry when challanged.

 

[NavyVet]

I keep hearing the comparison of the LTCH and a drivers license. Have any of you been pulled over for a tail light out and refused to present your drivers license when asked?

I understand that in perfect (constitutionally-driven) world, we should not have to have a pink card to exercise our 2a rights. That is not the world we live in.

The right has already been eroded, and being *********s when asked to show your 'permit' or license does NOTHING to further our cause.

I am not a lawyer, but my interpretation of the Indiana Code is this:

1. By default, it is against the law in Indiana to carry a handgun unless you are in one of the exempted groups (obtaining a LTCH is one of them).

2. The burden of proof to 'show exemption' is on you, not the police officer. Until that happens, an argument could be made that there is RAS that a crime is being committed. (Everyone seems to think that OC'ing a firearm is not a valid reason for a stop. I contend that it is until you show the LTCH)

3. Once the LTCH is displayed, the burden of proof for detaining the individual changes. At this point the officer has to have RAS not related to the firearm that would cause the stop to continue. If the officer cannot articulate that, then the person is within their right to not cooperate further.

This whole premise of being a jacka$$ to officers (most of the ones I encounter support our right to carry) trying to do their job to make a point that nobody gets is harmful.

Which outcome is better? Having the officer look at the LTCH and say "Thanks, have a nice day, sorry to have bothered you." or the episode that played out in the video.

The public is watching. Many of us OC because we want our communities to get used to seeing it. We would like it to be treated as normal. Every time one of these guys turns a simple encounter into a scene, we may look at it and say "good for you, way to stand firm", but the people watching are seeing it differently. They see a radical with a gun, unwilling to cooperate with law enforcement, and ask why. The answer they end up at is not "because they were standing up for their rights".

My grandfather used to ask me "What do you hope to achieve by the action you are about to take?". Let's think about what we ultimately want to accomplish....

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

 

[88GT]

Then that absolutely sucks, doesn't change the fact you need to present evidence of lawful carry when challanged.

How does that work knowing we don't have to be in physical possession of the LTCH?

 

[ArcadiaGP]

What if you encounter an officer with a hair up their ass, and after handing them/showing them the LTCH, they want to verify that it's yours? So they ask for ID... or call it in...?

Do you flash the LTCH, or hand it to them? What's required of you?

 

[AtTheMurph]

First one in

IC 35-47-2-1
Carrying a handgun without being licensed; exceptions; person convicted of domestic battery
Sec. 1. (a) Except as provided in subsections (b) and (c) and section 2 of this chapter, a person shall not carry a handgun in any vehicle or on or about the person's body without being licensed under this chapter to carry a handgun.

With that being said LEO have every right to stop you and ask to see your LTCH in the state of Indiana.

Thanks for another black eye for us that OC

They have to have probable cause to stop you. Just like if you are driving your car the cops do not have the power to stop and ask to see your license. We can disagree on whether this is the case but I suspect that when it is decided in court that probable cause will hold and the 5th Amendment will be upheld.

 

[NavyVet]

How does that work knowing we don't have to be in physical possession of the LTCH?

They way I read it is that you can present your LTCH and 'undo' the charges after the fact. Up until that point, you would be charged with the crime and subject to any/all that another who committed the same crime would be.

I see nowhere in the IC where the officer is responsible to look it up or call it in for you. If they do that, thank them. They don't have to. It is still your responsibility.

I would rather not create that much extra work for myself and again it comes down to what's the point? Lets work toward changing the laws that allow this to happen instead of creating more work for those stuck with enforcing the cobbled mess that our legislators have created.

I have my LTCH on me while armed.

 

[CathyInBlue]

They make you sit in a Subway booth while they call in your DL info and see if you're licensed, all the while lecturing you on how stupid OC is and berating you.

How do I know? Oh, no reason.

I'll just leave this here.

IC 35-47-11.1-2
Political subdivision regulation of firearms, ammunition, and firearm accessories prohibited
Sec. 2. Except as provided in section 4 of this chapter, a political subdivision may not regulate:
[…]
(2) the ownership, possession, carrying, transportation, registration, transfer, and storage of firearms, ammunition, and firearm accessories; and
[…]
As added by P.L.152-2011, SEC.4.

Legally speaking, while it's fine and dandy for a LEO to have an opinion or preference for private OC vs CC, professionally, he has no authority to share that opinion as legal advice, whatever that opinion may be, as that would constitute:

IC 35-47-11.1-3
Voidance of political subdivision ordinances, measures, enactments, rules, policies, and exercises of proprietary authority
Sec. 3. Any provision of an ordinance, measure, enactment, rule, or policy or exercise of proprietary authority of a political subdivision or of an employee or agent of a political subdivision acting in an official capacity:
[…]
(2) that pertains to or affects the matters listed in section 2 of this chapter;
is void.

 

[CathyInBlue]

How does that work knowing we don't have to be in physical possession of the LTCH?

Reciting the LTCH Lic. No. from the upper left hand corner is just as verifiable or disputable as presenting the physical artifact.

 

[Expat]

Did I see a wallet taken at one point

 

[CathyInBlue]

If the owner of the business gives you [STRIKE]written[/STRIKE] permission to be on their property then you wouldn't have even needed a Indiana handgun kings permission slip to carry a gun and could have just stated that as they took you out of the business.

The relevant langauge from IC 35-47-2-1(b)(2)(A) is "has the consent of the owner". It does not require a written document, or indeed, a physical artifact of consent in any fashion. The owner merely calling out to the police saying, "I gave him consent to carry in here." should have utterly short-circuited their JBTery.

 

[88GT]

They way I read it is that you can present your LTCH and 'undo' the charges after the fact. Up until that point, you would be charged with the crime and subject to any/all that another who committed the same crime would be.

I see nowhere in the IC where the officer is responsible to look it up or call it in for you. If they do that, thank them. They don't have to. It is still your responsibility.

I would rather not create that much extra work for myself and again it comes down to what's the point? Lets work toward changing the laws that allow this to happen instead of creating more work for those stuck with enforcing the cobbled mess that our legislators have created.

I have my LTCH on me while armed.

Completely misses my point. What constitutes evidence if we don't have to carry the physical license? Why not just arrest people for carrying and then let them provide their evidence in court regardless?

Reciting the LTCH Lic. No. from the upper left hand corner is just as verifiable or disputable as presenting the physical artifact.

Yes, I know. So would providing name, birth date, and SSN, I presume. I'm just wondering how people want to explain the boondoggle that was created by not requiring the physical possession of the LTCH knowing the criminal absolute of carrying a firearm sans exception, and the legal authority of LE to confirm said exception.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Two points I want to address here:

LEOs do NOT have the RIGHT to demand your LTCH. They DO have the AUTHORITY and POWER to do so.
Rights and authority/powers are not in any way, shape, or form, the same.

and

Using the above authority and power, they are expected to investigate crimes. It is, under current Indiana law, a criminal act to carry a handgun. The defenses against prosecution for that crime include the possession of a LTCH. So far, that sounds just like driving, true.

The US Supreme Court ruled, however, in Delaware v. Prouse, that it was not lawful to stop a driver solely for the purpose of verifying possession of a driver's license. No such ruling has been made in re: carrying a handgun. Excepting the fact that one is a privilege (driving) and the other is a Natural and Constitutional right, intuitively, they're the same thing, however, SCOTUS is known for making exceptionally narrow rulings intentionally.

The way around this is writing letters to your state legislators. Have them ready when they come back in January, having received multiple emails and letters and calls from you indicating that their constituents want Constitutional Carry in Indiana, to pass that law and eliminate the need for a LTCH within the confines of Indiana.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[armedindy]

Did the cops accomplish anything through this stop, other than making at least two young men more anti LEO? Did they make the street safer? Did the protect and serve, or did they harass and embarass?

That being said, thanks to all the good LEO's out there that do indeed make the streets safer every day.

 

[printcraft]

Did I see a wallet taken at one point

www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKwPOxA4vOQ

 

[Expat]

Did the cops accomplish anything through this stop, other than making at least two young men more anti LEO? Did they make the street safer? Did the protect and serve, or did they harass and embarass?

That being said, thanks to all the good LEO's out there that do indeed make the streets safer every day.

They ascertained that the suspect was legally carrying as required by the state legislature.