Decockers only

[Cameramonkey]

There's no safety to mess with. Draw, aim, fire. DA is only on the first trigger pull, and if so inclined, the hammer could be cocked on draw for SA on first shot.

CSB: Thinking back 30 years or so, I did a side gig for a uniformed security company. I was doing overnights and a supervisor stopped by to check on me. I was carrying a Ruger P91DC. It was the .40 version of the P89 in a decocker. Its decocker used the same lever as the P89 safety. To the uninformed, it looked like I was carrying with the safety off.

I was new and only on duty for several weeks, so it was the first time meeting this guy officially. We were talking and he looked at my sidearm and asked in a way that implied I was in trouble "Why isnt your safety on?" I informed him it was on "safe" Its a decocker model so thats how its carried. There is no safety per se. He was surprised and cautioned me to be careful like I didnt know what I was doing. Thats when I realized I recognized him. I realized I had seen him several weeks earlier in our qualifying class among the other noobs. For the full class. Including the safety training classroom portion and not just the range time to prove he could (still) shoot since we had to qualify every year. Which I thought was odd.

Shortly after he left I started putting two and two together. I heard through the grapevine a few days earlier that one of our guys had a ND. That is when I realized my supervisor was the ND guy. Thats why he was in remedial safety training, and why he was so over the top safety conscious.

 

[88E30M50]

To be honest the safety is between your ears.

Yup, certainly true. But, like anyone doing something new, it take a bit of time to build proficiency. New shooters might benefit from the additional safety of a heavier trigger pull on draw.

 

[ECS686]

I do not like thumb safeties at all. They are acceptable on 1911's only. When in a high stress situation your fine motor skills need to be sharp. Thumb safeties are easy to miss and your gun won't fire unless you disengage the safety. DA trigger is acceptable if you train with it. I always find myself pulling that shot so I do not carry DA/SA guns.

Respectfully that whole fine motor skills has been disproven. I know I know we were all told that back in the day but think about it. Using a magazine release and that little thing called pulling the trigger without moving the gun is just like using a safety. Just like using a swipe down 1911 safety if you can’t use that you can’t shoot or hit a magazine release button either but we pull triggers and do emergency magazine exchanges under the clock for qualifications, competition or some training courses!

 

[wcd]

Respectfully that whole fine motor skills has been disproven. I know I know we were all told that back in the day but think about it. Using a magazine release and that little thing called pulling the trigger without moving the gun is just like using a safety. Just like using a swipe down 1911 safety if you can’t use that you can’t shoot or hit a magazine release button either but we pull triggers and do emergency magazine exchanges under the clock for qualifications, competition or some training courses!

I would suggest there are some that may not be able to perform even the most basic function under stress.

The key is to know yourself and your limitations.

 

[indyblue]

I would suggest there are some that may not be able to perform even the most basic function under stress.

The key is to know yourself and your limitations.

 

[ECS686]

I would suggest there are some that may not be able to perform even the most basic function under stress.

The key is to know yourself and your limitations.

I see that every time with folks on the range. Even on a calm day simply making it go bang in a no stress recreational plinking environment can be a challenge for some folks!

 

[Cameramonkey]

Respectfully that whole fine motor skills has been disproven. I know I know we were all told that back in the day but think about it. Using a magazine release and that little thing called pulling the trigger without moving the gun is just like using a safety. Just like using a swipe down 1911 safety if you can’t use that you can’t shoot or hit a magazine release button either but we pull triggers and do emergency magazine exchanges under the clock for qualifications, competition or some training courses!

Tell that to the guy at the greenwood walmart that tried to be a Good Samaritan and stop an armored car robbery

Oh, wait. You can’t he spent the last moments of his life trying to figure out why his gun wouldn’t fire. He forgot to hit the safety switch.

 

[ECS686]

Tell that to the guy at the greenwood walmart that tried to be a Good Samaritan and stop an armored car robbery

Oh, wait. You can’t he spent the last moments of his life trying to figure out why his gun wouldn’t fire. He forgot to hit the safety switch.

Not to sound mean sorry about the guy but that is a fail to program yourself issue. And what i call a onsie. Was it a case of scars nerves or did he not know the condition of his gun then the gap to realize then react etc.
You’re going to have that one or two cases now and then. Which one would reduce if they practiced a little.

 

[injb]

Tell that to the guy at the greenwood walmart that tried to be a Good Samaritan and stop an armored car robbery

Oh, wait. You can’t he spent the last moments of his life trying to figure out why his gun wouldn’t fire. He forgot to hit the safety switch.

Do you have a link to more about this story?

 

[Cameramonkey]

Do you have a link to more about this story?

I cant find it now. Its been a good 10-15 years ago. There was even video of it. Guy sees the robbery going down, draws on the bad guys, and tries to fire but nothing happens. As he's obviously fiddling frantically with the gun the robber pointed his gun and shot him dead.

But now the results are all clogged with the recent mall food court incident so I cant dig deep enough to find it.

Not to sound mean sorry about the guy but that is a fail to program yourself issue. And what i call a onsie. Was it a case of scars nerves or did he not know the condition of his gun then the gap to realize then react etc.
You’re going to have that one or two cases now and then. Which one would reduce if they practiced a little.

Agreed. That is why I am against safeties for the average carrier. The average person doesnt shoot it enough to burn the safety sweep into their brain. Heck, many dont even take it to the range. Its a talisman that they keep in their pocket or center console but never practice.

 

[Wabatuckian]

Decocking is the only safe way to lower the hammer on a double action auto. The debate with me is whether it is worth having a double action auto to start with.

I do question this. My first carry pistol was a pre-decock Taurus PT92. I never had any issues decocking it with my thumb, and I carried it for over 10 years, practicing at least weekly.

 

[ECS686]

I do question this. My first carry pistol was a pre-decock Taurus PT92. I never had any issues decocking it with my thumb, and I carried it for over 10 years, practicing at least weekly.

It’s funny how stuff comes back around many many years ago the Beretta had the same frame safety (1970’s) then went to the slide with a de cock/safety

Beretta re introduces a version of the frame safety in the later 1990’s dor USPSA but it went away but now they have a DA/SA version and they came back out with the SAO 92XI. Not sure what the market is for those but good luck to them.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Not to sound mean sorry about the guy but that is a fail to program yourself issue. And what i call a onsie. Was it a case of scars nerves or did he not know the condition of his gun then the gap to realize then react etc.
You’re going to have that one or two cases now and then. Which one would reduce if they practiced a little.

The number of people doing realistic practice routinely is vanishingly small. I carried a 1911 for many many years during the Clinton AWB. I shot IDPA, practiced near daily, etc. Then I started training hand to hand and incorporating weapons access training into those scenarios. Getting a safety off on a static range is pretty cake with a bit of practice. Getting your ass handed to you by a guy whipping you with a cane, getting knocked on your ass and entangled, etc...less so. People tend to imagine their gun fight as a standing up affair with decent space between them. That's often not the case.

Years later I took Craig Douglas' ECQC and got a better idea of weapons access and retention, but I would still not return to a manual safety on a handgun.

I've also had my thumb broken and useless in a fight. I'm aware there are work arounds, but again during an entangled fight those may not be that easy to do when you need something easy because you've got a lot of other stuff going on.

There's a pretty significant number of losses in my case files due to safeties. Large numbers don't apply to any given individual, but it's near universal people think they are better than they are at this sort of thing.

 

[DadSmith]

⁸The advantage is primarily in "people management" mode. The heavier and longer trigger is less prone to unintentional discharges from subconcious trigger checks, which people who swear they don't do often do under high stress. Same as touching your wallet when you just took a bunch of money out of the ATM, you aren't aware of it but your subconcious wants to verify you have that important thing where you think that important thing is. It's a training issue, but the number of people doing realistic high stress training is a much smaller pool than people carrying guns.

When you draw and need to fire in a hurry there is nothing to prohibit you from doing so. You do not have to manipulate the decocker to make the gun work like you do a safety. If you are entangled and being jerked around, if you are injured, if you have a compromised grip, or you just flubbed the safety with a SAO you're now holding a dead gun until you get the safety off. That has resulted in a lot of people eating rounds in cases I've personally worked, there are few things as dangerous as pulling a non-functional gun.

The decocker, in contrast, is manipulated *after* the event. You likely have time to slow down, to breath, to concentrate. Not always, but usually. If you flub it, that's ok, do it again. If you flub it and don't realize you flubbed it, you still have to make two more mistakes before bad things happen. You have to manipulate the trigger and you have to have the gun pointed somewhere unsafe. There's no difference here between not decocking and not re-safeing.

I will not carry a SAO for self-defense. Many people do, but after fighting with a broken hand I'm not one of them. Same as many people carry non-safety/non-hammer guns AIWB, but I'm not one of them. Too easy to make one mistake and have tragic consequences, and folks who are highly trained sometimes do because nobody is flawless over a long enough period of time. DA/SA lets you get that sweet SA trigger without the need for a safety.

Hmm...
I always thought the decocker was for interrogation purposes.

 

[ditcherman]

I cant find it now. Its been a good 10-15 years ago. There was even video of it. Guy sees the robbery going down, draws on the bad guys, and tries to fire but nothing happens. As he's obviously fiddling frantically with the gun the robber pointed his gun and shot him dead.

But now the results are all clogged with the recent mall food court incident so I cant dig deep enough to find it.

Agreed. That is why I am against safeties for the average carrier. The average person doesnt shoot it enough to burn the safety sweep into their brain. Heck, many dont even take it to the range. Its a talisman that they keep in their pocket or center console but never practice.

For some the gun is the talisman, for some the safety is the talisman.

 

[ECS686]

There's a pretty significant number of losses in my case files due to safeties. Large numbers don't apply to any given individual, but it's near universal people think they are better than they are at this sort of thing.

In retirement I help out at a range. I see those types all the time. My question/curiosity is would that same person in that same scenario with say a Glock have any better outcome???

From the examples I have seen I’m not so sure.

Your point in injuries is often overlooked . While this didn’t happen in a fight. I know a Gunsite Instructor that’s a hard core 1911 guy. Got a smashed thumb in a log splitter and no way was he able to swipe a 1911 Safety in or off. He shot a Glock in our Range-Master instructor class. (Though counseling I believe he’s recovered from having to use a polymer gun LOL)

As you said a lot of folks think they are way better and prepared than they really are (that goes with a lot of LEOs as well)

A lot of people just need to realize having a firearm alone will not magically ward off evil spirits!

 

[Wabatuckian]

The number of people doing realistic practice routinely is vanishingly small. I carried a 1911 for many many years during the Clinton AWB. I shot IDPA, practiced near daily, etc. Then I started training hand to hand and incorporating weapons access training into those scenarios. Getting a safety off on a static range is pretty cake with a bit of practice. Getting your ass handed to you by a guy whipping you with a cane, getting knocked on your ass and entangled, etc...less so. People tend to imagine their gun fight as a standing up affair with decent space between them. That's often not the case.

Years later I took Craig Douglas' ECQC and got a better idea of weapons access and retention, but I would still not return to a manual safety on a handgun.

I've also had my thumb broken and useless in a fight. I'm aware there are work arounds, but again during an entangled fight those may not be that easy to do when you need something easy because you've got a lot of other stuff going on.

There's a pretty significant number of losses in my case files due to safeties. Large numbers don't apply to any given individual, but it's near universal people think they are better than they are at this sort of thing.

Good points.

For me, I believe the superior trigger pull and resulting control of a single-action is an advantage that outweighs the risk of an injured thumb.

I broke my left (dominant) hand some years ago, and just carried on my right side until it healed. Practicing weak-hand is a good idea.

That said, I've been tempted to find a DAO and slick the action up to be on par with an older S&W K-frame. The Beretta Cougar has always intrigued me. After having carried a DA/SA for years, sometimes swapping to an S&W M19-3, I found that it's not a long pull I mind so much as it is consistency and feel. I hate the feel of most striker-fired pistols.

The 1911 has a superior trigger to most pistols, and the way I draw, it's almost impossible to not disengage the safeties. My 19-3 had a superior DA pull to all pistols and most revolvers I've tried since. It was a pinned and recessed Combat Masterpiece, and I suspect someone slicked it up even more than it was from the factory prior to my stumbling across and buying it. Damn, I wish I still had that old wheelgun.

 

[SmokingTrigger]

Good points.

For me, I believe the superior trigger pull and resulting control of a single-action is an advantage that outweighs the risk of an injured thumb.

I broke my left (dominant) hand some years ago, and just carried on my right side until it healed. Practicing weak-hand is a good idea.

That said, I've been tempted to find a DAO and slick the action up to be on par with an older S&W K-frame. The Beretta Cougar has always intrigued me. After having carried a DA/SA for years, sometimes swapping to an S&W M19-3, I found that it's not a long pull I mind so much as it is consistency and feel. I hate the feel of most striker-fired pistols.

The 1911 has a superior trigger to most pistols, and the way I draw, it's almost impossible to not disengage the safeties. My 19-3 had a superior DA pull to all pistols and most revolvers I've tried since. It was a pinned and recessed Combat Masterpiece, and I suspect someone slicked it up even more than it was from the factory prior to my stumbling across and buying it. Damn, I wish I still had that old wheelgun.

I used to think that. Then I started training and thousands of rounds later SA trigger isn't important anymore.

Striker fired is my preference now. I haven't shot a DA/SA in years but I always liked the consistent pull.