Decockers only

[indyblue]

Educate me on the hows and whys to run a de-cocking only pistol?

It doesn't seem as safe as I'm used to pushing my 1911 saftey down on draw. I leave my 92fs safety off because its DA/SA and it flips up opposite the 1911.

On decockers only, what advantage do they have for EDC?

Asking because reading the classies and see that CZ75 D PCR for sale and its DO. I might look at it closer if I understand the implications of DO.

 

[ZurokSlayer7X9]

I believe the advantage is that a de-cocker allows for safer holstering for handguns without dealing with safeties. Instead of having the hammer cocked and ready to go, the de-cocker drops the hammer and puts it in double-action mode. If you needed to fire immediately, like in a self defense situation, you just pull the trigger in DA, no other manipulation required. Is it as safe as a cocked and locked 1911? No. Is it safer than a ready to party striker fire like a Glock? Yes, I'd say so.

 

[joe138]

Decocking is the only safe way to lower the hammer on a double action auto. The debate with me is whether it is worth having a double action auto to start with.

 

[Born2vette]

I believe the advantage is that a de-cocker allows for safer holstering for handguns without dealing with safeties. Instead of having the hammer cocked and ready to go, the de-cocker drops the hammer and puts it in double-action mode. If you needed to fire immediately, like in a self defense situation, you just pull the trigger in DA, no other manipulation required. Is it as safe as a cocked and locked 1911? No. Is it safer than a ready to party striker fire like a Glock? Yes, I'd say so.

I would argue that its safer than a series 70 1911 (no firing pin safety), and about the same as a series 80 in condition 1. Also, when holstering you can keep your thumb on the hammer so if clothing (or anything) gets caught in the trigger you feel the hammer going back and can abort before the pistol fires.

Personally I like knowing that all I need to do is aim and pull the trigger, no worry about getting the safety off and even with my modified pistol I still have a 7 lb DA trigger to slow my roll in an adrenaline situation. YMMV

 

[Lpherr]

There's no safety to mess with. Draw, aim, fire. DA is only on the first trigger pull, and if so inclined, the hammer could be cocked on draw for SA on first shot.

 

[ZurokSlayer7X9]

I would argue that its safer than a series 70 1911 (no firing pin safety), and about the same as a series 80 in condition 1. Also, when holstering you can keep your thumb on the hammer so if clothing (or anything) gets caught in the trigger you feel the hammer going back and can abort before the pistol fires.

Personally I like knowing that all I need to do is aim and pull the trigger, no worry about getting the safety off and even with my modified pistol I still have a 7 lb DA trigger to slow my roll in an adrenaline situation. YMMV

I admit I'm not versed in the various 1911 models. My comparison was mainly to point out there is nothing inhibiting you from pulling the trigger on a de-cocked gun versus a more conventional safety. I agree though, I really do love the idea for guns with de-cockers as I like the "at the ready" status without going the no safety striker fire route.

 

[indyblue]

My habit with the 92 is to decock via safety then flip safety off and that’s how I carry. One DA pull away from action.

So, a D-cocker only lets me skip the step of switching safety off? So with my current habits, it sounds like it’s basically a non-issue.

 

[Colt556]

In my rotation I have CZs with decockers, a P7 Squeeze cocker and 1911s cocked n locked. The P7 is the easiest gun to get into and out of action by use of the squeeze cocker, the CZ comes in 2nd for me because I can shoot it DA/SA and when I’m ready to stop shooting just use the decocker to drop the hammer into a safe position. While I love my 1911s I notice I’m a little more cautious and conscientious about the position of the hammer and safety while shooting and when I reholster or set it on the bench. I may not be expressing it correctly but that’s roughly my way of thinking on the subject.

 

[Firehawk]

My venture into handguns started with 1911s and carrying cocked and locked. I recently got into CZs and I have a P01 Omega that can be converted between a safety or a decocker. Right now I have the safety on it because that’s what I’m used to. But I’ve been thinking of swapping it back over to decocker. Like others have said, it just seems more simple for self defense.

 

[russc2542]

Decocker could be argued to be safer than cocked and locked:
-No captive energy in the system (to be released on drop, holster/garment failures, or mechanical failure).
-If all other brain/preventative safeties fail, should a child get their hands on it, it's harder to pull a DA trigger than flip off a safety.
-No chance of a click instead of a bang if you forget to flip the safety off. (and in an adrenaline dump you won't notice the weight)

Carrying a safety-equipped pistol with the safety off leads to the potential of a click instead of a bang when needed. lord knows I've seen it enough in matches and flat range paper punching. I've seen guys swear up and down it's fine, that's how they carry, it'll never accidentally activate only to happen as soon as the timer goes beep. Far better to just train to flip the safety off on the draw.

For the record I'm in the decocker camp. I have carried (and would willingly again if the need arose) a 1911. That's about the only safety I'd carry because it's ergonomic: my thumb lands there on the draw and rests there during firing. I would not carry a beretta 92 or similar slide-mounted up-to-fire safety because of the lack of ergonomics (decocker's fine though).

I would 100% carry a P7 if it didn't weigh a metric ton with the ergonomics of a 2x4 (4x4 for the M13). I have big hands but dang! Oh and I have scars from the slide bite.

Note: I'm not saying cocked and locked or passive-only striker guns are unsafe. Both are perfectly fine with the right equipment and a modicum of training.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

The advantage is primarily in "people management" mode. The heavier and longer trigger is less prone to unintentional discharges from subconcious trigger checks, which people who swear they don't do often do under high stress. Same as touching your wallet when you just took a bunch of money out of the ATM, you aren't aware of it but your subconcious wants to verify you have that important thing where you think that important thing is. It's a training issue, but the number of people doing realistic high stress training is a much smaller pool than people carrying guns.

When you draw and need to fire in a hurry there is nothing to prohibit you from doing so. You do not have to manipulate the decocker to make the gun work like you do a safety. If you are entangled and being jerked around, if you are injured, if you have a compromised grip, or you just flubbed the safety with a SAO you're now holding a dead gun until you get the safety off. That has resulted in a lot of people eating rounds in cases I've personally worked, there are few things as dangerous as pulling a non-functional gun.

The decocker, in contrast, is manipulated *after* the event. You likely have time to slow down, to breath, to concentrate. Not always, but usually. If you flub it, that's ok, do it again. If you flub it and don't realize you flubbed it, you still have to make two more mistakes before bad things happen. You have to manipulate the trigger and you have to have the gun pointed somewhere unsafe. There's no difference here between not decocking and not re-safeing.

I will not carry a SAO for self-defense. Many people do, but after fighting with a broken hand I'm not one of them. Same as many people carry non-safety/non-hammer guns AIWB, but I'm not one of them. Too easy to make one mistake and have tragic consequences, and folks who are highly trained sometimes do because nobody is flawless over a long enough period of time. DA/SA lets you get that sweet SA trigger without the need for a safety.

 

[ditcherman]

My venture into handguns started with 1911s and carrying cocked and locked. I recently got into CZs and I have a P01 Omega that can be converted between a safety or a decocker. Right now I have the safety on it because that’s what I’m used to. But I’ve been thinking of swapping it back over to decocker. Like others have said, it just seems more simple for self defense.

If I’m not mistaken, the omega trigger system is not meant to be carried cocked and locked, is it?
I was looking forward to trying the safety mode, but the book says not one in the pipe, the safety is only for range management, short term use type of thing.
At least that was my take on what I read.

 

[injb]

I want to know that as long as I remember to chamber a round, there's no mode that renders the gun unfireable. There will always be a risk of things that make it unfirable but I don't need the design of the gun contributing to that too.

 

[indyblue]

The advantage is primarily in "people management" mode. The heavier and longer trigger is less prone to unintentional discharges from subconcious trigger checks, which people who swear they don't do often do under high stress. Same as touching your wallet when you just took a bunch of money out of the ATM, you aren't aware of it but your subconcious wants to verify you have that important thing where you think that important thing is. It's a training issue, but the number of people doing realistic high stress training is a much smaller pool than people carrying guns.

When you draw and need to fire in a hurry there is nothing to prohibit you from doing so. You do not have to manipulate the decocker to make the gun work like you do a safety. If you are entangled and being jerked around, if you are injured, if you have a compromised grip, or you just flubbed the safety with a SAO you're now holding a dead gun until you get the safety off. That has resulted in a lot of people eating rounds in cases I've personally worked, there are few things as dangerous as pulling a non-functional gun.

The decocker, in contrast, is manipulated *after* the event. You likely have time to slow down, to breath, to concentrate. Not always, but usually. If you flub it, that's ok, do it again. If you flub it and don't realize you flubbed it, you still have to make two more mistakes before bad things happen. You have to manipulate the trigger and you have to have the gun pointed somewhere unsafe. There's no difference here between not decocking and not re-safeing.

I will not carry a SAO for self-defense. Many people do, but after fighting with a broken hand I'm not one of them. Same as many people carry non-safety/non-hammer guns AIWB, but I'm not one of them. Too easy to make one mistake and have tragic consequences, and folks who are highly trained sometimes do because nobody is flawless over a long enough period of time. DA/SA lets you get that sweet SA trigger without the need for a safety.

I take this as possible advice to do a G mod on my 92 FS?

I do practice with the 92 to make sure my thumb is in the right place at the saftey when I grab it in case it’s been turned off. but that is not under duress so I see your point about one less thing to have to “think“ about.

 

[Firehawk]

If I’m not mistaken, the omega trigger system is not meant to be carried cocked and locked, is it?
I was looking forward to trying the safety mode, but the book says not one in the pipe, the safety is only for range management, short term use type of thing.
At least that was my take on what I read.

I’m pretty sure we talked about that and that talk got me thinking I should switch it back to decocker (and reasons mentioned in this thread). And I haven’t got that holster for it yet so it’s not in my carry rotation yet.

 

[ditcherman]

I’m pretty sure we talked about that and that talk got me thinking I should switch it back to decocker (and reasons mentioned in this thread). And I haven’t got that holster for it yet so it’s not in my carry rotation yet.

Do you have the book for it? I’m just thinking I could get you the relevant pages if you needed.

 

[ditcherman]

My habit with the 92 is to decock via safety then flip safety off and that’s how I carry. One DA pull away from action.

So, a D-cocker only lets me skip the step of switching safety off? So with my current habits, it sounds like it’s basically a non-issue.

Not real familiar with Berettas but from your description I believe this is correct.

I shoot striker (P320), SAO, and CZ and Sig DA/SA.
Many have the valid argument against DA/SA of learning two different trigger pulls, but I highly recommend tuning the CZ’s. A 6lb DA pull that is smooth and crisp with a single of 3.5 is so nice, that first pull is easier to learn.
But you may already have that.
Good luck!

 

[Born2vette]

Not real familiar with Berettas but from your description I believe this is correct.

I shoot striker (P320), SAO, and CZ and Sig DA/SA.
Many have the valid argument against DA/SA of learning two different trigger pulls, but I highly recommend tuning the CZ’s. A 6lb DA pull that is smooth and crisp with a single of 3.5 is so nice, that first pull is easier to learn.
But you may already have that.
Good luck!

He has fired my Wizardized, Cajunized PCR so he knows what they can be.

 

[Firehawk]

Do you have the book for it? I’m just thinking I could get you the relevant pages if you needed.

Yes I have it.

 

[ditcherman]

He has fired my Wizardized, Cajunized PCR so he knows what they can be.

CZ!