Daylight Saving Time

[jamil]

I think I was quoting the wrong time values. (Need more coffee.)

DST sunrise range: 6:15AM (mid-June) - 8:01AM (DST start, May) / 8:16AM (DST end, Nov).

Without DST, that range would be 5:15AM (mid-June) - 8:05AM (mid-December).

The point still stands: standard time never results in a sunrise of "9-10AM".

Was just gonna challenge your previous post but thought I'd read on first.

 

[jamil]

Yeah 10am someone is smoking crack

Probably someone is smoking crack at 10PM too! Probably at any given time of day someone is smoking crack.

 

[jamil]

Some of us are on CT

Not the cool people!

 

[chipbennett]

Again, Indiana should "spring forward" and forget it.
View attachment 259421

If I'm reading this map correctly, it says exactly the opposite: that Indiana should be behind by an hour from where it is, currently - i.e. that Indiana would more properly be in Central time.

 

[jamil]

Again, Indiana should "spring forward" and forget it.
View attachment 259421

There is a sort of need for time zones. And if we keep them, maybe we should realign them according to the physics instead of so many political concerns.

Or, I think ultimately UTC might be a good alternative, then each locale decides for itself when the workdays start. I get the challenges of world interactions. I think technology could help with that. UTC wasn't feasible 100 years ago. And is probably not feasible now. But will be someday.

 

[chipbennett]

So central time would result in a 9am sunrise

No. It would be the other way around. When it is 8AM US EST, it is 7AM US CST, not 9AM.

 

[jamil]

If I'm reading this map correctly, it says exactly the opposite: that Indiana should be behind by an hour from where it is, currently - i.e. that Indiana would more properly be in Central time.

But then we wouldn't be cool. We'd be dull. We don't want to be dull. We want to be with the cool people.

 

[Ingomike]

No one “gains” more daylight. It’s the same tiny amount as always in the winter.

Don't get matches near this strawman.

That is a shortcut many folks that have no idea the proper terminology use to describe changing the societal clock schedule to better utilize the daylight available.

 

[chipbennett]

Meh. That's a straw man. No one thinks that. When people say they get more daylight hours, they're talking about in relation to their work schedules. Also, you don't get more daylight hours by moving south. The daylight/night hours are more evenly split the closer you get to the equator.

Not really. I think it would be more accurate to say that people are talking in relation to their waking hours, not their work schedules. The "work schedule" argument is biased toward people who are more productive after work.

But we're not talking about the portion of a 24 hour period that is daylight. This is all about people's work schedules and when daylight hours are most useful to them, particularly when the weather is good. Timekeeping and work schedules are 100% a social construct. It is 0% about a belief that DST bestows upon us more daylight during a 24 hour period.

Again, I disagree. This view is biased toward people who find use in after work hours.

Different factors drive people's preference about societal timekeeping. If you're retired, or maybe self-employed, maybe a farmer where absolute time matters more than the clock, whatever, your preference is driven by other factors than those who work days for a company and get off work about the same time every weekday afternoon.

We've been arguing about this for ~9 years on INGO. We'll probably argue about it until we stop shifting clocks.

I'm not retired, self-employed, or a farmer. I find usefulness/productivity in waking hours prior to my working hours. I am not alone. I just differ from those who are biased toward after work hours.

 

[Ingomike]

Changing man made clocks doesn’t change the suns function nor the planets orientation.

Right, clocks and time are man made, therefore it is not a violation of nature to adjust that man made equipment to better utilize the sun for the most people.

 

[chipbennett]

You have the first two backwards.

Your circumstances drive your preference. My circumstances drive mine. I sleep well either way. But I like having more hours of daylight after I'm done with work to enjoy outdoors. Most people do. But I'm not about to dictate what your priorities must be. It's just that if it's a choice of shifting the clock to permanent ST or DT, you're probably gonna lose that one. Unless the WEF gets their way and there is no longer an outdoor leisure to be had by non-elites.

You're going to have to explain how it would be preferable for Indiana permanently to use a time that is two hours ahead of our annual sunlight cycle.

 

[chipbennett]

Probably someone is smoking crack at 10PM too! Probably at any given time of day someone is smoking crack.

It's 10 o'clock somewhere?

 

[snorko]

If I'm reading this map correctly, it says exactly the opposite: that Indiana should be behind by an hour from where it is, currently - i.e. that Indiana would more properly be in Central time.

Correct. I failed to include my main point that IN should spring forward then move to full central time. Solar Noon would be very close to chronological noon near the equinox, much more than now.

 

[chipbennett]

There is a sort of need for time zones. And if we keep them, maybe we should realign them according to the physics instead of so many political concerns.

Or, I think ultimately UTC might be a good alternative, then each locale decides for itself when the workdays start. I get the challenges of world interactions. I think technology could help with that. UTC wasn't feasible 100 years ago. And is probably not feasible now. But will be someday.

I work with colleagues and clients literally around the world (all US timezones, Europe, Singapore, China, etc.), sometimes all within a given week - if not within a given day.

I think this suggestion is silly - or, at least, counterproductive. People are generally going to align their working hours with their local daylight cycle. As such, time zones are beneficial to inform about the state of the daylight cycle in a given location. Knowing that it is 8PM in China when it is 7AM in Indiana is useful, and helps determine when to plan mutually acceptable meeting times. How else are we supposed to keep track of that information across the globe?

UTC is merely a construct, and provides no utility for international collaboration.

 

[Ingomike]

We've been arguing about this for ~9 years on INGO. We'll probably argue about it until we stop shifting clocks.

I love this thread. Would not be any fun if we all agreed…

 

[Ingomike]

There is a sort of need for time zones. And if we keep them, maybe we should realign them according to the physics instead of so many political concerns.

How does that happen? Time zones are a political creation…

 

[jamil]

Not really. I think it would be more accurate to say that people are talking in relation to their waking hours, not their work schedules. The "work schedule" argument is biased toward people who are more productive after work.


Again, I disagree. This view is biased toward people who find use in after work hours.


I'm not retired, self-employed, or a farmer. I find usefulness/productivity in waking hours prior to my working hours. I am not alone. I just differ from those who are biased toward after work hours.

I think you're making an argument of semantics. Fine. We can call it waking hours, though it is both. My waking hours don't really change according to the clock. I go to sleep about the same time on the clock whether we're in DST or ST. I want more time during daylight after work. Before work, it's not practical because I start work shortly after rising for the day, regardless of DST or ST. I usually wake between 6-7AM. Breakfast, 3 S's. I start working ~8AM, and stop working between 5-6PM. Having more hours in front of work doens't help me gain enough hours before work. And nothing is open that early anyway. When I get off at 5PM, I still have several hours I can get things done before sunset.

The point is still that zero people other than Lawyers, democrats, and blondes, think that DST increases the portion of daylight hours in a 24 hour period. And, one's circumstances drives the preference. Your preferences aren't convenient to me, and mine aren't convenient to you.

 

[jamil]

How does that happen? Time zones are a political creation…

First, I'd rather we do away with timezones and just use UTC. But that would be a social construct too. Or you could call it a political creation. Realigning timezones would also be a political creation.

 

[Ingomike]

I am not alone. I just differ from those who are biased toward after work hours.

You are not alone, but society has decided to do it after work hours. Go look at a new gun before work, go to a public range before work, go to your kids extracurricular activities before work. Not happening. If central standard time was in place none of those things typically are happening at 6am.

 

[chipbennett]

Correct. I failed to include my main point that IN should spring forward then move to full central time. Solar Noon would be very close to chronological noon near the equinox, much more than now.

So, instead of simply staying on EST, you're proposing a) shifting to permanent DST, and b) moving from US Eastern to US Central time zone?

Isn't it far easier just to... stay put on EST?