Culture War - who's waging it?

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  • jamil

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    TL;DR: I got time. Too cold to do anything outside or go anywhere. No work. Might as well INGO. People claiming they're not participating in the culture war are full of ****.

    I talk to people who aren't like me. I want to know what they're thinking. When I talk to progressives about politics a theme I keep hearing during conversations is how xyz issue is being politicized. Okay, let's dig into that a bit. Who is politicizing it?

    Oh. It's the right. They're politicizing covid. They're politicizing the vaccine. They're politicizing climate change. They're politicizing the economy. They're politicizing gun violence. They're politicizing sex education. Sexual orientation. Identities. Everything.

    Wait. Do you not have a policy position you advocate for any of those things?

    Well, of course I do.

    You're politicizing it then. When you advocate for a policy on an issue, by definition, that's politicizing that issue.

    No. I'm just saying what we should do about it to solve the problem. It's the right wingers trying to make it a left vs right thing. It's not left vs right. It's right vs wrong. I'm not left or right. I'm non-political. I'm just standing up for what is right.

    Well so are right wingers.



    Of course thinking they're being non-political is nonsense. They live in bubbles where they all believe the same things and reinforce each other with the same positions on everything. Both sides have their bubbles, but we're talking about the left bubble here. The bubble reinforces the thinking that they are in the mainstream worldview and that anyone who disagrees with them are on the fringe, whether or not it's actually fringe. Even a 60/40 split does not have a fringe. It's unearned arrogance to assume that their bubble is correct.

    So now I'm starting to hear progressives express stuff about the culture war. Same kind of thing. They're not fighting in the culture war. It's those right-wingers. Some left leaning INGOers have sort of eluded to that sentiment in a few places here and there. I didn't want to address it there.

    It looks to me like the idea expressed by progressives, that they don't care about or are not fighting in the culture war, is a lot like the claim, they're "not politicizing". I think, pretty much, unless you live under a rock, you're involved in it whether you think you are or not.

    If you really don't care about the culture war, then not caring means you don't care if abortion is illegal or not. You don't care what's taught in school, school prayor or drag shows. Don't care. You don't care if gays get to marry or not. You don't care about any of the wedge issues either way. Ban guns. Don't ban guns. Don't care. To not care about the culture war means you don't care who wins. You're neutral.

    I think such people are actually extraordinarily rare. I suspect instead, when people say they don't care about the culture war it's because the side of the culture war they're on--and they are on a side or they wouldn't need to signal their apathy about what you care about--they view their positions on things as being correct or normal. They do care about the culture war. They advocate for their normalcy just like they politicize issues by aligning with a side.

    Saying they don't care about the culture war is not that they don't care who wins. It's that they don't care about the concerns and position of the other side of those issues. Well duh. They other side doesn't care about your support for gay marriage. It's probably just better to just say the truth, that you don't care what the other side thinks than to pretend you're not being political or participating in the culture war. But then the other side thinks the same thing about you.
     
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    GodFearinGunTotin

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    Most people simply don’t want to argue about it. Back during the covid days, I’d ask people near me “why are you wearing that mask”? More times than not they say something like “they don’t do anything but it’s the rule (or policy of the store/office/or place of employment) and I just don’t want to rock the boat.” I’d bet the same applies to culture war stuff. Many would have an opinion but they don’t want to make waves, they just want to go-along-to-get-along. Many others simply have other priorities and as long as it’s not breaking their bones or picking their pockets at the moment, they‘d rather pay attention to who’s making the playoffs or who’s getting voted off the island.
     

    jamil

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    Most people simply don’t want to argue about it. Back during the covid days, I’d ask people near me “why are you wearing that mask”? More times than not they say something like “they don’t do anything but it’s the rule (or policy of the store/office/or place of employment) and I just don’t want to rock the boat.” I’d bet the same applies to culture war stuff. Many would have an opinion but they don’t want to make waves, they just want to go-along-to-get-along. Many others simply have other priorities and as long as it’s not breaking their bones or picking their pockets at the moment, they‘d rather pay attention to who’s making the playoffs or who’s getting voted off the island.
    I think that's true. But I'm talking about people who are political but won't admit to it. For example, talking to my SIL about climate change. She went off about how long we've known about it, but nothing has been done about it because the opposition has politicized it.

    Well. Okay. They have. Because it works like this. Some issue is raised. The earth is warming. We think it's because of carbons added to the atmosphere by people. Al right. Fine. A potential problem has been identified. Is it really a problem? Or if it is, how bad is it? Should everyone just assume that because a problem has been identified that it's really the problem they think it is. So there's naturally disagreement. That's where politics come in. Now there are sides. You advocate a side on an issue in terms of policy, you just politicized it. It can't be politicized when there is 100% agreement.

    The arrogance is the resentment that there are sides at all, as if people should just believe what she does. It's what it boils down to. She's really complaining that people dare to disagree with her.
     

    GodFearinGunTotin

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    I think that's true. But I'm talking about people who are political but won't admit to it. For example, talking to my SIL about climate change. She went off about how long we've known about it, but nothing has been done about it because the opposition has politicized it.

    Well. Okay. They have. Because it works like this. Some issue is raised. The earth is warming. We think it's because of carbons added to the atmosphere by people. Al right. Fine. A potential problem has been identified. Is it really a problem? Or if it is, how bad is it? Should everyone just assume that because a problem has been identified that it's really the problem they think it is. So there's naturally disagreement. That's where politics come in. Now there are sides. You advocate a side on an issue in terms of policy, you just politicized it. It can't be politicized when there is 100% agreement.

    The arrogance is the resentment that there are sides at all, as if people should just believe what she does. It's what it boils down to. She's really complaining that people dare to disagree with her.
    Isn’t that a meme? I‘ve heard that exact sentiment in a pithy statement before, maybe a quote by someone famous or notorious.
     

    Leadeye

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    Climate change is easily countered, I just ask for the numbers. How much change relative to the history of changes in the climate? How much is man contributing to those changes. I never get answers so I just dismiss it as another scam no different than pool in River City.

    When that brings out the emotion I ask people to consider the emotional response and the why.
     

    GodFearinGunTotin

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    Climate change is easily countered, I just ask for the numbers. How much change relative to the history of changes in the climate? How much is man contributing to those changes. I never get answers so I just dismiss it as another scam no different than pool in River City.

    When that brings out the emotion I ask people to consider the emotional response and the why.
    The climate change scam is an example of a culture war front so ubiquitous that both sides have finally capitulated and are adherents to the cult. To borrow a famous phrase, they’ve followed the money and both sides have figured out how to line their pocket with it.
     

    Leadeye

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    The climate change scam is an example of a culture war front so ubiquitous that both sides have finally capitulated and are adherents to the cult. To borrow a famous phrase, they’ve followed the money and both sides have figured out how to line their pocket with it.

    Very true, it's a money generator, just like Harold Hill selling band instruments. I've never understood how people are so swept up in this, it's scary.
     

    Ingomike

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    Very true, it's a money generator, just like Harold Hill selling band instruments. I've never understood how people are so swept up in this, it's scary.
    God has been eliminated for so many that need something to believe in…

    Saw a study that social media users gave less to charity or causes than the more disconnected but they believed they had done a lot. Why? Posting on social media gave them similar feelings of accomplishment that actual work and donations did.

    Bringing it back to how they get swept up in this, it is all about feels and you want to pizz some off just explain how residential recycling creates more pollution than it saves. They give the same expressions as if you just told them they were adopted…
     

    jamil

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    The green industrial complex is as lucrative as any. When talking to progressives about climate change, I don't have any evidence that they've done any thinking on their own. What I hear are common talking points that they've heard on the media they consume. And I suppose that the same can be said of the other side. People who really don't know anything about it pit their proxy experts against the other's proxy expert.

    I'm not learned on climate science. So I'm not gonna argue the science. That discussion is for climatologists. But I will use logic to point out that the person I'm arguing with doesn't know either. So let's talk about what we know.

    Guns is a similar discussion. People don't argue points of their original thought. They argue the points they heard somewhere else.

    It's actually hilarious when you hear a family member regurgitate anti-gun talking points, as if you've never considered those points before, and will just stop supporting gun rights if you'd just listen. The reaction is really hilarious when you finish their sentence with the words they meant to say. I answer the dumbfounded look on their face with, yeah, I heard the same nonsense spewing from Shannon Watts too.
     

    Leadeye

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    The green industrial complex is as lucrative as any. When talking to progressives about climate change, I don't have any evidence that they've done any thinking on their own. What I hear are common talking points that they've heard on the media they consume. And I suppose that the same can be said of the other side. People who really don't know anything about it pit their proxy experts against the other's proxy expert.

    I'm not learned on climate science. So I'm not gonna argue the science. That discussion is for climatologists. But I will use logic to point out that the person I'm arguing with doesn't know either. So let's talk about what we know.

    Guns is a similar discussion. People don't argue points of their original thought. They argue the points they heard somewhere else.

    It's actually hilarious when you hear a family member regurgitate anti-gun talking points, as if you've never considered those points before, and will just stop supporting gun rights if you'd just listen. The reaction is really hilarious when you finish their sentence with the words they meant to say. I answer the dumbfounded look on their face with, yeah, I heard the same nonsense spewing from Shannon Watts too.

    This is a common impasse and I think it's at the core of conservative vs progressive. Unless you have real logical numbers to use in a decision it boils down to conservatives saying, hey it's working now and has in the past, so leave it alone and progressives saying lets just change it anyway regardless.
     

    jamil

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    God has been eliminated for so many that need something to believe in…

    Saw a study that social media users gave less to charity or causes than the more disconnected but they believed they had done a lot. Why? Posting on social media gave them similar feelings of accomplishment that actual work and donations did.

    Bringing it back to how they get swept up in this, it is all about feels and you want to pizz some off just explain how residential recycling creates more pollution than it saves. They give the same expressions as if you just told them they were adopted…
    Unearned virtue feels like real virtue, but without having to make sacrifices. Commenting on social media against the imaginary Nazis must really make some feel good. It comes in many forms though. Raising awareness one of the most pathetic excuses for feined virtue. Or. Here's another good one. Spend $1000 on yourself to raise $10 for charity.
     

    GodFearinGunTotin

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    God has been eliminated for so many that need something to believe in…

    Saw a study that social media users gave less to charity or causes than the more disconnected but they believed they had done a lot. Why? Posting on social media gave them similar feelings of accomplishment that actual work and donations did.

    Bringing it back to how they get swept up in this, it is all about feels and you want to pizz some off just explain how residential recycling creates more pollution than it saves. They give the same expressions as if you just told them they were adopted…
    One the environmental engineers at work gave me grief one day because I threw my plastic Coke bottle in the trash rather then the designated recycling bin. I replied by telling them that the net effect of recycling them vs simply throwing them in trash favored the latter. I was then regaled of the corporation’s goal of zero land fill and “sustainability”. It’s a cult. And its priests have done a admirable job converting people of all persuasions to bow at it’s alter.
     

    jamil

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    This is a common impasse and I think it's at the core of conservative vs progressive. Unless you have real logical numbers to use in a decision it boils down to conservatives saying, hey it's working now and has in the past, so leave it alone and progressives saying lets just change it anyway regardless.
    Not regardless, but they say, it's not working the way it is now. And then they make up ways that it's not working. The patriarchy, for example. Another, fake oppresssion (not that all oppression is fake but they certainly make up fake ways people are oppressed).
     

    Leadeye

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    Not regardless, but they say, it's not working the way it is now. And then they make up ways that it's not working. The patriarchy, for example. Another, fake oppresssion (not that all oppression is fake but they certainly make up fake ways people are oppressed).

    It's essentially an emotion driven argument with progressives and when you get into those it's like arguing about religion. I wouldn't care a hoot about their religion except it's picking my pocket every day to enrich the Jim Jonses at the top.
     

    GodFearinGunTotin

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    Not regardless, but they say, it's not working the way it is now. And then they make up ways that it's not working. The patriarchy, for example. Another, fake oppresssion (not that all oppression is fake but they certainly make up fake ways people are oppressed).
    It’s always compared to the unobtainable utopia. The believe that in this fallen world, if only we all pulled in the same direction, spent the proper resources, made the necessary sacrifices, we would arrive at their version of utopia. It’s the perfect scam. The vision of a perfect tomorrow is always just one more tax increase or regulation away.
     
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