CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[ChristianPatriot]

Right. If we start at the beginning God created the heavens before the earth.

It's not God created the earth and the heavens.

One of the coolest aspects of God is His omnipresence. He exists outside of time. He invented time.

Genesis 1:1-5 all happened in the first day (whether that’s day literally or figuratively is another discussion).

It doesn’t say heaven then earth either. Heaven and earth. So saying one happened before the other is possibly inferring meaning or significance that isn’t there in the scripture.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I can’t imagine their being a whole lot of the former. I don’t think there is life (conscience) beyond earth, but even if there was, it wouldn’t change God’s plan for the people of earth. And that’s a WAY more important/relevant discussion.

It's probably in his wisdom, he's made the universe so vast. Even if the materialists are right and that life will spontaneously come into being when circumstances align, we're so far from the nearest planets, we'll probably never be able to prove it.

I count myself as a agnostic regarding this issue.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

One of the coolest aspects of God is His omnipresence. He exists outside of time. He invented time.

Genesis 1:1-5 all happened in the first day (whether that’s day literally or figuratively is another discussion).

It doesn’t say heaven then earth either. Heaven and earth. So saying one happened before the other is possibly inferring meaning or significance that isn’t there in the scripture.

This is where the folks that study the linguistics can be interesting to hear on this. So many times what we gather by the simple reading of an English version of the bible can be enhanced once we know how the words were translated, etc. "And" being a simple conjunction doesn't necessarily imply sequence in our language. I wonder in the original language, it's the same? I don't know. Just allowing room for there possibly to be a difference.

 

[printcraft]

This is where the folks that study the linguistics can be interesting to hear on this. So many times what we gather by the simple reading of an English version of the bible can be enhanced once we know how the words were translated, etc. "And" being a simple conjunction doesn't necessarily imply sequence in our language. I wonder in the original language, it's the same? I don't know. Just allowing room for there possibly to be a difference.

That's my take.

Example: if I told you about my two oldest kids and I said "I created Cody and Ciera" which one would you assume was the oldest?

From the reading God created the world in a progression of events/commandments.

 

[T.Lex]

That's my take.

Example: if I told you about my two oldest kids and I said "I created Cody and Ciera" which one would you assume was the oldest?

The one you don't mention.

 

[printcraft]

The one you don't mention.

Practice kids... you get it right eventually. Shhhh.

 

[T.Lex]

Oh, and lest we forget, Genesis 2 has slightly different language that has fueled the notion that not everything may have been described in the Bible (or Torah).

That notion - that there may be a "rest of the story" - is interesting in this regard.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Some say Ezekial 1:4 and on describes an inter-planetary vessel landing.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+1&version=NRSVCE

That, or a foretelling of Revelation...

 

[ChristianPatriot]

This is where the folks that study the linguistics can be interesting to hear on this. So many times what we gather by the simple reading of an English version of the bible can be enhanced once we know how the words were translated, etc. "And" being a simple conjunction doesn't necessarily imply sequence in our language. I wonder in the original language, it's the same? I don't know. Just allowing room for there possibly to be a difference.

I would love to learn Greek and Hebrew for this specific purpose. I always go back to the Strong’s concordance, but like you said, grammar barriers exist too.

Not to change the subject, but that’s why I’m not a KJV-only kind of Baptist. Languages are so fluid and different, it’s impossible to say only one Bible is right. I think there are correct manuscripts and correct methods of translation though.

 

[T.Lex]

That, or a foretelling of Revelation...

Yeah, being a prophet can be tricky, from what I hear.

 

[HoughMade]

Article about whether Genesis 1 and 2 contradict each other.

https://answersingenesis.org/contradictions-in-the-bible/do-genesis-1-and-2-contradict-each-other/

 

[T.Lex]

For the record - I said "different" language, not contradictory.

It is different in the original language, too, so it does require some nuanced translation. Regardless, I think the fact of 2 differing accounts does suggest that neither rendition is comprehensive. Nor could it be.

 

[JettaKnight]

Some say Ezekial 1:4 and on describes an inter-planetary vessel landing.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+1&version=NRSVCE

Time machine.

 

[fnpfan]

He's picked a difficult view to support, if his brief post actually is indicative of his full view in the first place.

I hope he'll return to the thread to engage.

I make my post for several reasons, first being, in my early teen years I did witness something that can not be explained, but that is not the only reason, there are things in this world that have been made before we kept record of time like the Nazka lines that were made to only be viewed from above..far above, long before we had the ability to fly, or even figure out the math that goes into making these "markers" there are several of these types of unexplained markers with math so precise that we did not even realize the precision until recently...for example look at the pyramids in Egypt, a feet that could not be replicated today with astrological mathematics that we could not have understood, and global positioning that could not have been comprehended by humans at the time., do some research on the precision of the placement of each of those blocks (some exceeding 200 tons) but all are placed with corner facing within 2 degree true north, and how you can not slide a sheet of paper between the blocks (real precision) or the huge stone blocks in puma punka that have been cut with such precision that even the most advanced stone masons say they could not replicate the blocks even with the laser techniques we have in our modern time...yet these blocks were made many thousands of years ago... Please do some research into these places and more...our world is not alone... I'm not disputing god, I'm saying is to think the great creator just created earth and left the rest as blank filler is pretty closed minded.. look at the evidence and not just blind faith because a man told you that's how it is

 

[JettaKnight]

So, on this, I think the answer depends on the omnipotence of God. We were told that humans have dominion over the earth, and everything on it. To me, I don't see any exclusionary language that means life on other planets is non-Biblical.

I don't think any version of the creation story says that ours is the only planet with intelligent life. We are made in his likeness, sure, but there may be other life forms that are different views or maybe not in his image at all.

We can still be Chosen, if there are other intelligent or non-intelligent life forms.

Hence my question, "are they as intelligent and do they have souls?"

Do they question who created them and why they are here?

Nothing else on earth but man does that. It's a safe step to say that space slugs wouldn't either. But green women...

 

[ChristianPatriot]

I make my post for several reasons, first being, in my early teen years I did witness something that can not be explained, but that is not the only reason, there are things in this world that have been made before we kept record of time like the Nazka lines that were made to only be viewed from above..far above, long before we had the ability to fly, or even figure out the math that goes into making these "markers" there are several of these types of unexplained markers with math so precise that we did not even realize the precision until recently...for example look at the pyramids in Egypt, a feet that could not be replicated today with astrological mathematics that we could not have understood, and global positioning that could not have been comprehended by humans at the time., do some research on the precision of the placement of each of those blocks (some exceeding 200 tons) but all are placed with corner facing within 2 degree true north, and how you can not slide a sheet of paper between the blocks (real precision) or the huge stone blocks in puma punka that have been cut with such precision that even the most advanced stone masons say they could not replicate the blocks even with the laser techniques we have in our modern time...yet these blocks were made many thousands of years ago... Please do some research into these places and more...our world is not alone... I'm not disputing god, I'm saying is to think the great creator just created earth and left the rest as blank filler is pretty closed minded.. look at the evidence and not just blind faith because a man told you that's how it is

From my experience in this thread, you’re not going got find any of us with blind faith or anybody who is close minded. Making a blanket statement like our world is not alone is as bad as making a blanket statement that we’re the only ones. I don’t think we’re the only ones but what the heck do I know.

 

[HoughMade]

For the record - I said "different" language, not contradictory.

It is different in the original language, too, so it does require some nuanced translation. Regardless, I think the fact of 2 differing accounts does suggest that neither rendition is comprehensive. Nor could it be.

I get it and I don't disagree that the creation account could not possibly be comprehensive.

I think the gist of the article is that one reading of Genesis 2 in Hebrew places the creation of animals and plants in a specific chronology compared to man while another reading of the original (as far back as we can go) Hebrew is more of a state of "these things were also created by God" rather than placing a specific order on their creation in Genesis 2.

...but as long as we're not trying to read God out of the mix as the creator ex nihilo​, I think we can end up in the same place.

 

[T.Lex]

I make my post for several reasons, first being, in my early teen years I did witness something that can not be explained, but that is not the only reason, there are things in this world that have been made before we kept record of time like the Nazka lines that were made to only be viewed from above..far above, long before we had the ability to fly, or even figure out the math that goes into making these "markers" there are several of these types of unexplained markers with math so precise that we did not even realize the precision until recently...for example look at the pyramids in Egypt, a feet that could not be replicated today with astrological mathematics that we could not have understood, and global positioning that could not have been comprehended by humans at the time., do some research on the precision of the placement of each of those blocks (some exceeding 200 tons) but all are placed with corner facing within 2 degree true north, and how you can not slide a sheet of paper between the blocks (real precision) or the huge stone blocks in puma punka that have been cut with such precision that even the most advanced stone masons say they could not replicate the blocks even with the laser techniques we have in our modern time...yet these blocks were made many thousands of years ago... Please do some research into these places and more...our world is not alone... I'm not disputing god, I'm saying is to think the great creator just created earth and left the rest as blank filler is pretty closed minded.. look at the evidence and not just blind faith because a man told you that's how it is

Thank you for your engagement on this.

However, I would encourage you to do some additional research as well. Even very recently, we are discovering that ancient peoples knew a great deal about astronomy - unconnected from each other. (Granted, they had a LOT of time on their hands, undistracted by things like... internet forums.)

BBC - Travel - Arizona?s mysterious clock of ancient times

In other words, different cultures were discovering pretty advanced science at different times all over the world. There are also cultural mythologies about visitors sharing advanced knowledge.

Now, to your point, I think it is ... overly simplified... to call someone who does not believe in aliens "close minded" without getting to know them and why they believe the way they do. Rather, it may be that they have been very OPEN minded, but reached a reasonable position by reason.

 

[HoughMade]

Does the bible preclude the existence of extraterrestrial "intelligent" life?

Not as I read it. I believe that God is consistent and immutable so His nature remains the same everywhere, but I think it would be a mistake to think that just because the Bible doesn't mention life elsewhere in the universe, it can not exist. It may or may not. I believe that the only life here that has a soul is mankind as we are the only life describes as being created Imago Dei (in the image of God). Could such life exist elsewhere? I have no basis to say one way or the other. Unless someone can't point out specific Scripture that excludes the possibility of life elsewhere, I will consider it just one more thing we don't know. I'm fine with not knowing exactly how the sovereignty of God and man's free will both exist simultaneously, so alien life? I have no need make a conclusion about that.

 

[JettaKnight]

I would love to learn Greek and Hebrew for this specific purpose. I always go back to the Strong’s concordance, but like you said, grammar barriers exist too.

Not to change the subject, but that’s why I’m not a KJV-only kind of Baptist. Languages are so fluid and different, it’s impossible to say only one Bible is right. I think there are correct manuscripts and correct methods of translation though.

It's tricky, Genesis 1 is.

Even if you read it in Hebrew, you still can't fully understand it without the context. I've written about this before, but the context is lost when we in our modern society with science and all that knowledge gained from it, read it. You've got to remember that the original audience was a completely different culture and didn't ask how like we do, but why. I believe that Gen 1 is an explanation of the function of things and their importance set into a framework of days of the week. It's not a historical account of how God created the world as Ken Hamm would tell you, but an account of the creator given to a people with no real recorded knowledge of the Creator until that point.