Am I a good shot?

[dross]

What's good with a handgun? Years ago in the Army, I was a very good shot with my rifle. I grew up with rifles, but prior to buying a handgun a few months ago, I probably hadn't put more than a couple of hundred rounds through a handgun in my entire life.

Since October, I've probably fired about 2K to 3K rounds, and I can tell I'm getting better. At seven yards my groups are two to three inches. At ten yards, three to four inches, and at 25 yards they really open up to about ten to twelve inches when I'm doing well, bigger when I'm not. I haven't shot handguns with anyone but my sister when she visited me at Christmas. I shoot somewhat better than she. I'm planning on getting some instruction soon when I find a good place to get it.

I honestly don't know if my results are terrible or great. What do you guys think?

 

[Joe Williams]

'Bout average. Better at 25 yards than lots of folks, who can't hit the target at all, but not near as well as the guns can do. As you've noticed, practice makes perfect Most defensive handguns will be able to do at least 6"-8" at 25 yards, and lots of them will do 2"-3". At 7 yards, 1"-2" should be a good goal.

If you haven't yet, I'd suggest getting a nice target .22 like a Ruger Mark III bull barrel target model, a Browning Buckmark target .22 or, if you've got the money to spend and like revolvers, a S&W 617. The money you'll save will pay for the guns very quickly, and you'll be able to shoot more.

A Ruger Mark II 5 1/2" bull barreled target model did more than anything else to improve my marksmanship. It was the most accurate handguns I've ever owned, being able to shoot less than an inch at 25 yards, and my quest to shoot as well as the gun led to a lot of bullseye target practice.

 

[USMC_0311]

What handgun are you shooting? One or 2 hands? Do you have any pics of targets?

Do you want to shoot in competitions or just better yourself? Being able to hit a target at 25 yards even 3 or 4 inch groups is good enough. You probably never have to deploy your pistol on a target that far anyways. But if you want to shoot some competitions you will want to to get those groups 1 and 2 inches. Really the only true way to see how you are doing is in person. There are some good instructors and some good shooters on this site find some in your area and go the range with them.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

Hate to break it to you...

But with the size of groups that you've posted about in the above, I'm going to have to say "no"...you're an average shot. Right there with most of us.

Practice DOES help, for sure. Imagine if you hadn't shot 2-3k rounds what your groups would look like. But, are you practicing the correct form for "target shooting"?

Target shooting is different than shooting to be proficient enough so that if you have to defend yourself you can hit a man-sized target.

And, honestly, some folks are just naturally "better" than others. My buddy Brad is a MUCH better rifleman than I am, but I'm a much better pistol shooter than he is.

For target shooting, make sure that your front sight is in focus and that the target and the rear sight is a little fuzzy. Squeeze the trigger; when it goes off, it should "suprise" you.

-J-

 

[Bubbajms]

You should get together with some of the Indianapolis-area members. I've found that a friendly range sessions always teaches me a thing or two..

 

[dross]

Thanks for the info. Believe me, I wasn't looking for an ego fix, just a reference point. I'm happy I'm about average, considering how little handgun experience I have. I do have a Ruger Mark III, but I shoot it about as well now as my CZ P01. How accurate is bulk .22 ammo? Also, do you guys reccommend a good instructor? Self defense is my driving force, but within that goal I would like to become as skilled as possible, and I would be interested in competition to further that goal and for it's own benefit.

 

[BE Mike]

If you get some good instructional tapes or books on pistol shooting, they will open your eyes to the fundamentals of marksmanship. Shooting in and of itself will not help you improve unless you have an understanding of what you need to do. To get better you need to train, but first you need to know how to shoot a pistol. Although geared towards competitive shooting, with an emphasis on formal bullseye shooting, the book below explains the fundamentals of pistol marksmanship. If you learn the basics, you can apply them to just about any type of pistol shooting where you want to hit something. You can later read or view other material that will help you learn to draw, reload, and shoot without the use of sights, etc.

PST - Larry's Guns Inc.

 

[VN Vet]

It is my opinion that if you can cover the holes with your hand after five rounds you are an adquate shooter, but not a good shooter. At twenty five yards with five shots, you should have all shots falling within a 3" circle. As I said, this is my opinion. Practice and learning your load as well as your sights will get you there. Take your time. Accuracty and not speed shooting is what you are after. The speed will come later after many rounds and again, practice.

 

[Robert Richardson]

The more you pratice,the better you get.

 

[USMC_0311]

How accurate is bulk .22 ammo? Also, do you guys reccommend a good instructor? Self defense is my driving force, but within that goal I would like to become as skilled as possible, and I would be interested in competition to further that goal and for it's own benefit.

On a bench rest you would see some improvements using better ammo. I shot this group with bulk federal on a bench rest at 25 yards with a ruger 22/45. Thats 10 rounds, I don't see match ammo doing much better.

Where are you located? If close to Bloomington obijohn or rhino can help. If closer to Indy there is really quite a few just keep an eye on the training and tactics section for upcomming classes. I was a primary marksmanship instructor in the Marines. If you live close to Anderson, I have a place to shoot (backyard) and would be happy to give a few pointers. Also attending a few matches and watching would be a big help. Most competive shooters are very willing to help and are loaded with tons of free knowledge.

 

[indyjoe]

The more you pratice,the better you get.

Only true if you are practicing the right things. It is entirely possible to practice the same wrong thing over and over again.

 

[esrice]

Are you looking for bullseye accuracy or combat accuracy?

If you're going for combat (or "self-defense") accuracy, my thoughts are a bit different than shooting small groups.

Two things make up good hits-- speed and accuracy. And these two characteristics are in constant battle with each other. You must give up one to get the other, and vice versa. For example:

I draw my weapon and place 3 shots in an 12" group in only .85 seconds. It was lightning fast, but my hits were spread out. I may have gotten off the first shot against an attacker, but I only hit him once, as the other rounds strayed.

I then draw my weapon and place 3 shots in a 3" group, but this time it takes me 2.5 seconds to do it. Sure the placement was good, but I'd be dead from the bad guy shooting back at me during those long 2.5 seconds.

The idea here is to find a "happy medium" and start working from there. My "happy medium" is about the size of a fist, or call it 4" groups.

If I draw and put all my rounds in a 3" group, then I'm going to slow and I need to speed up. If I put all my rounds in an 8" group, then I'm going too fast and I need to slow down.

With good practice you should see your groups staying at 4", but its your SPEED that you should be improving on.

To boil it down, don't focus on tighter groups, but faster speed. Only shoot as fast as you can maintain good hits.

A big thanks to Rob Pincus for really driving this concept home during one of his combat handgun DVDs. It was certainly a "light bulb" moment for me.

 

[dross]

Are you looking for bullseye accuracy or combat accuracy?

If you're going for combat (or "self-defense") accuracy, my thoughts are a bit different than shooting small groups.

Two things make up good hits-- speed and accuracy. And these two characteristics are in constant battle with each other. You must give up one to get the other, and vice versa. For example:
The idea here is to find a "happy medium" and start working from there. My "happy medium" is about the size of a fist, or call it 4" groups.

If I draw and put all my rounds in a 3" group, then I'm going to slow and I need to speed up. If I put all my rounds in an 8" group, then I'm going too fast and I need to slow down.

With good practice you should see your groups staying at 4", but its your SPEED that you should be improving on.

To boil it down, don't focus on tighter groups, but faster speed. Only shoot as fast as you can maintain good hits.

.

I get the concept completely, and I don't disagree, but here's my thoughts:

I've been a tennis teaching pro, and when I teach tennis, like most tennis instructors, I explain that power is overrated, and that it will come, but first be consistent.

I agree that I want to learn to shoot fast and that group size smaller than a certain size isn't important. It's just that I would assume that unless I'm capable of shooting pretty darn good with no stress (speed), my technique will quickly fall apart when trying to be fast. In tennis, I try to build perfect muscle memory first, then let the speed come naturally.

What do you think about that line of reasoning?

 

[Disposable Heart]

When Eagle Creek opens up, cmon by there. Anyone there can really help you out. The hardest thing to learn (in actuality) is the getting over how a gun works and not spraying the target like a nitwit. You are past that. Time for some fundamental building and technique honing. Talk to any of the guys out there (except me, I am a moron and a mall ninja! ), they give lots of folks LOTS of help! Steve is really good at helping out, I am as well and Eric was (damn it I miss him). There are several NRA instructors there (not me though ) that have lots to offer you.

 

[esrice]

What do you think about that line of reasoning?

I'm still trying to find the part where you disagree with my statements.

Technique is an entirely different aspect of the bigger equation. My above "theory" is based on someone already having their technique down.

As for building that technique, its like the old saying "slow is smooth, smooth is fast".

 

[Coach]

Are you looking for bullseye accuracy or combat accuracy?


I draw my weapon and place 3 shots in an 12" group in only .85 seconds. It was lightning fast, but my hits were spread out. I may have gotten off the first shot against an attacker, but I only hit him once, as the other rounds strayed.

quote]

On the buzzer you are drawing and getting three shots on the target in under 1 second?

 

[Joe Williams]

Are you looking for bullseye accuracy or combat accuracy?

If you're going for combat (or "self-defense") accuracy, my thoughts are a bit different than shooting small groups.

Two things make up good hits-- speed and accuracy. And these two characteristics are in constant battle with each other. You must give up one to get the other, and vice versa. For example:

I draw my weapon and place 3 shots in an 12" group in only .85 seconds. It was lightning fast, but my hits were spread out. I may have gotten off the first shot against an attacker, but I only hit him once, as the other rounds strayed.

I then draw my weapon and place 3 shots in a 3" group, but this time it takes me 2.5 seconds to do it. Sure the placement was good, but I'd be dead from the bad guy shooting back at me during those long 2.5 seconds.

The idea here is to find a "happy medium" and start working from there. My "happy medium" is about the size of a fist, or call it 4" groups.

If I draw and put all my rounds in a 3" group, then I'm going to slow and I need to speed up. If I put all my rounds in an 8" group, then I'm going too fast and I need to slow down.

With good practice you should see your groups staying at 4", but its your SPEED that you should be improving on.

To boil it down, don't focus on tighter groups, but faster speed. Only shoot as fast as you can maintain good hits.

A big thanks to Rob Pincus for really driving this concept home during one of his combat handgun DVDs. It was certainly a "light bulb" moment for me.

I found that practicing bullseye shooting, aside from providing it's own fun and satisfaction, made me faster without even trying. Accuracy became second nature, almost, so I didn't spend as much time thinking about hitting the target. Kind of like when I practice my draw, I usually do so fairly slowly, concentrating on getting it right instead of how fast I can go.

 

[dwh79]

Its just like in duels and the old west fastest is not always the winner. accuracy is what matters. I know most of us on here practice but do most people on here believe that even 1% of criminals actually are even remotely good shots?

 

[Coach]

Its just like in duels and the old west fastest is not always the winner. accuracy is what matters. I know most of us on here practice but do most people on here believe that even 1% of criminals actually are even remotely good shots?

Most criminals are not that good, but they can be. Clyde Barrow was very good. John Dellinger shot his way out of situation or two as well.

 

[dwh79]

Valid point about the old gangsters. My main point though was that accuracy in my opinion will prove itself more important than speed. Slow and steady wins the race.