Am I a good shot?

[esrice]

On the buzzer you are drawing and getting three shots on the target in under 1 second?

Hahaha, sorry I was using the hypothetical figures purely for the example. I'm not a competition shooter so I had NO idea what a fast vs. slow time would be, so I did my best.

Why, is that pretty fast?

 

[esrice]

I found that practicing bullseye shooting, aside from providing it's own fun and satisfaction, made me faster without even trying. Accuracy became second nature, almost, so I didn't spend as much time thinking about hitting the target. Kind of like when I practice my draw, I usually do so fairly slowly, concentrating on getting it right instead of how fast I can go.

I wasn't trying to indicate that he shouldn't practice bullseye shooting, but simply that he shouldn't use grouping as a way to judge if he's "a good shooter", as it relates to combat effectiveness. Obviously, if he's trying to be a good bullseye shooter, then his groups are EVERYTHING.

Your method of "get the fundamentals 100% in slow time, and the speed will come" is solid.

 

[Coach]

Valid point about the old gangsters. My main point though was that accuracy in my opinion will prove itself more important than speed. Slow and steady wins the race.

I agree with you. You cannot miss fast enough to win. The first hit is important not the first shot. Nothing wrong with it being the first shot though.

 

[Coach]

Hahaha, sorry I was using the hypothetical figures purely for the example. I'm not a competition shooter so I had NO idea what a fast vs. slow time would be, so I did my best.

Why, is that pretty fast?

I figured you either made a typo, or I wanted to know where you got your capes made.

I was going to go out to the range tomorrow and see if I could get three off with the gun already drawn and on target.

 

[esrice]

I was going to go out to the range tomorrow and see if I could get three off with the gun already drawn and on target.

Don't let me get in the way of your day at the range. Just be sure to give us back a report.

 

[Coach]

Don't let me get in the way of your day at the range. Just be sure to give us back a report.

We will have to see. This wind has done some damage that has to be fixed first. I will see what I can do.

 

[BE Mike]

You must learn to crawl before you walk and walk before you run. Learn the fundamentals of marksmanship (shooting one well placed shot, time after time). The other things like drawing, speed, and reloading can be learned after you have the basics down.

Wasn't it Hickcock who said, "Speed is fine, but accuracy is final!"?

 

[indyjoe]

You must learn to crawl before you walk and walk before you run. Learn the fundamentals of marksmanship (shooting one well placed shot, time after time). The other things like drawing, speed, and reloading can be learned after you have the basics down.

Wasn't it Hickcock who said, "Speed is fine, but accuracy is final!"?

And to go along with that: Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fast.

One of this biggest things to get people to do is complete follow through. A shot is not over until you sights are lined up and you are about to squeeze the trigger for the next shot.

 

[Coach]

Live Fire Test results 2/12/2009

Sorry for the Thread Highjack dross.

Live Fire Test Results:
Some of the numbers discussed in this thread got me thinking last night. So I went out to the range and tried a couple of things. All of this shooting was done at five yards at one USPSA target. The lower A zone was my aiming point. (6’X10”) I went out there cold and did no warm draws of any nature.

I shoot competition and I dry fire for competition and when I practice; I practice competition for the most part (99%).

I started out with my carry gun, a Smith and Wesson M&P 9mm, IWB holster but no vest or shirt covering the gun. I do not practice draws with this gun very often. (Plenty of room to be critical I suppose) This gun is straight from the factory nothing done what so ever. All draws were done from the hands hanging relaxed at sides.

Three Shots gun drawn and on target:
First run: time was 0.81 two A’s one C.
Second run: time was 0.76 all three A’s.
Third run: time was 0.80 all three A’s.

Draw one shot:
1) 1.22 2) 1.32 3) 1.16 4) 1.07 5) 1.14 6) 1.08
All hits in the A zone.

I went to the garage and put on my competition holster and gun an STI from Brazos Custom a very fine gun in all respects.

Three Shots with the gun drawn and on target:
First run: 0.59 All A’s super tight group less than an inch. (it’s the gun)
Second run: 0.65 All A’s great group again.

Draw one shot:
1) 1.13 2) 1.09 3) 1.11 4) 0.98 5) 0.92 6) 0.87

I practice draws with the competition gun frequently. I was a little disappointed in the first three here. I wanted to be below 1.10, but only made it once. A year ago I had trouble getting below 1.20 at three yards. Obviously there is something to be said for warming up.

 

[rhino]

You could have told me about this when we were talking on the phone and assuring me that my one-time 1.49 sec draw/hit one with my IWB holster was "not bad."

1.08? Bastard.

I did a 1.11 with a Smith & Wesson 5904 back in 2003 once and I was averaging in the 1.40s, but I didn't use my sights. And it was a regular belt holster, not IWB.

I suck.

I started out with my carry gun, a Smith and Wesson M&P 9mm, IWB holster but no vest or shirt covering the gun. I do not practice draws with this gun very often. (Plenty of room to be critical I suppose) This gun is straight from the factory nothing done what so ever. All draws were done from the hands hanging relaxed at sides.

Three Shots gun drawn and on target:
First run: time was 0.81 two A’s one C.
Second run: time was 0.76 all three A’s.
Third run: time was 0.80 all three A’s.

Draw one shot:
1) 1.22 2) 1.32 3) 1.16 4) 1.07 5) 1.14 6) 1.08
All hits in the A zone.

 

[Coach]

I had not done this test at that point. I still had other work to do first. The 1.08 was after five draws. The 1.22 that was cold tells the greatest story I think. All shots utilized the sights.

 

[slow1911s]

Would now be a good time to mention my .84 A hit, draw from a surrender start at 5 yds? I should also mention I have a witness (ahem...Rhino!...ahem.) I should also mention I pulled a dozen or so sub-1 second draws that same day. I also practiced back then. Ugh...

 

[rhino]

Would now be a good time to mention my .84 A hit, draw from a surrender start at 5 yds? I should also mention I have a witness (ahem...Rhino!...ahem.) I should also mention I pulled a dozen or so sub-1 second draws that same day. I also practiced back then. Ugh...

Indeed, I was there. Bastard.

 

[rhino]

I had not done this test at that point. I still had other work to do first. The 1.08 was after five draws. The 1.22 that was cold tells the greatest story I think. All shots utilized the sights.

It does tell the story.

And it sheds a little light on many of the people who claim they can draw from concealment using an IWB holster in 1.5 seconds on demand all the time. Most of them will never accomplish this feat in front of an impartial witness (for a reason).

 

[U.S. Patriot]

Most defensive shots are 8-12 feet. As long as you can hold a decent patern at that distance, that's all that really matters

 

[Coach]

Would now be a good time to mention my .84 A hit, draw from a surrender start at 5 yds? I should also mention I have a witness (ahem...Rhino!...ahem.) I should also mention I pulled a dozen or so sub-1 second draws that same day. I also practiced back then. Ugh...

The air is thinner up there where you are. You should be faster!

My all time best was last fall .79 but not surrender. I think Jake was here that day but I am not certain of that. It was defintely not a cold draw though either.

 

[jeremy]

Most defensive shots are 8-12 feet. As long as you can hold a decent patern at that distance, that's all that really matters

Finally something closer to the truth!

 

[Coach]

Finally something closer to the truth!

What would a decent pattern be? Are you implying that speed is not a factor at all?

 

[jeremy]

Move only as fast as you can successfully engage your target. Seen entirely to many people try to literally run and shoot. just to run out of ammo. Seen to many people worry about being the first out of the holster, just to shoot them selves.

Slow is smooth, Smooth is fast.

 

[rhino]

The "smooth/fast" think only takes you so far. At some point, eliminating wasted motion is done, and you'll gain no further benefit from "smooth." Then if you choose to acknowledge the value of speed, you have to address it directly.

David Elderton of Ky-Tac www is an excellent source of information on this topic and in fact he teaches a class that helps you improve the speed of your draw and first hit times.

One of the huge elements in getting quicker is learning to relax everything that needs to be relaxed. Unnecessary muscular tension is the enemy of speed. Visual speed is also a factor, as learning/adapting to see the front sight more quickly plays another big role. Ultimately, your speed will be limited by how fast you can see more than anything else.