Abortion: The unexplored issue

[IndyDave1776]

What is considered life is a difficult topic that many disagree on: is the point of "life" when the unborn child has it's own DNA, is it when it's heart starts to beat, is it when it is viable outside it's mother's womb, it is at birth?

Out of my own personal (very non-scientific) beliefs I would say life begins at conception. That is the point at which it begins to grow and develop and will continue to develop until it can survive outside it's mother's womb. An abortion to me can be defined as any external action that intentionally terminates that pregnancy. I was told at 19 weeks that one of my children may be a downs baby. There were very difficult decisions and I held fast to my beliefs and as it turned out he is perfectly healthy and happy. I understand that not everyone who receives that type of diagnosis has the same result I did, but we cannot devalue human life in that manner. We are not "God" and by acting as if we are we remove that measure by which our country was founded.

Such a bad time to be out of rep!

 

[RockofStrength]

So you want to foot the bill? Where do you draw the line?

It's either that or if in a hypothetical world where we didn't have social welfare programs, the victim (mother) would basically be told "Suck it up and deal with it". You're either socialistic or as much the cold-hearted bastard you accuse me of being.

I don't treat a person like a burden to be eliminated.

Personal Charity (NOT WELFARE) is a perfectly acceptable response. Putting a bullet in the kid's head in the nursery is not. And there is not a lick of difference between an abortion and a quick death in a nursery besides the fact that you have to see the death in the latter situation.

 

[OkieGirl]

Such a bad time to be out of rep!

Thanks.

I try very hard to stay far far away from the political discussions but could not stay away from this topic. I am very concerned that this is something that is eroding our country's foundational beliefs. I do believe that it is a part of why 20 year old man can walk into an elementary school and murder 20 small children. Life is precious and we are not God.

For those women who want to argue that an unexpected child is too much of a burden I would gladly stand toe to toe with her and have that conversation. There are so many loving homes looking for babies to adopt.

 

[Regionnus Rattis]

If a woman wants an abortion, it is fine for her to murder her unborn child (it's a fetus of a child, it's not a fetal pig or baboon). However, if person shoots a pregnant woman or stabs her in the abdomen and if she dies, that person is charged with murder of both herself and her unborn child. The mother to be has the responsibility to do what she can to bring the baby to full term. If she does not want it, there are many, many couples who would gladly adopt.

 

[CountryBoy1981]

What it comes down to is that when someone and/or people want to murder/enslave people, they convince others that those people are less than human/not human. It happened with African-American slaves, it happened with the Jews, it is now happening with the unborn babies. The next front (due to national health care) is toddlers and the elderly. History repeats itself and there will always be someone and/or people who want to murder/enslave/exterminate others and they will convince the public that those people are not human or less than human. The only way to it is to have a black and white line that does not change over time.

 

[MightySanta]

I have to point out that the bolded section is technically incorrect. Obama voted twice (once in the Illinois legislature and once in the Senate) against legal protections for babies born alive after failed attempts to abort, so being fully out in the atmosphere isn't even a high enough standard for that sorry, sorry piece of dirt.

I stand corrected

 

[MightySanta]

What is considered life is a difficult topic that many disagree on: is the point of "life" when the unborn child has it's own DNA, is it when it's heart starts to beat, is it when it is viable outside it's mother's womb, it is at birth?

Out of my own personal (very non-scientific) beliefs I would say life begins at conception. That is the point at which it begins to grow and develop and will continue to develop until it can survive outside it's mother's womb. An abortion to me can be defined as any external action that intentionally terminates that pregnancy. I was told in my 19th week of pregnancy that one of my children may be a downs baby. There were very difficult decisions and I held fast to my beliefs and as it turned out he is perfectly healthy and happy. I understand that not everyone who receives that type of diagnosis has the same result I did, but we cannot devalue human life in that manner. We are not "God" and by acting as if we are we remove that measure by which our country was founded.

That also happened to someone in my family. They were VERY strongly pressured by the medical "exports" to have it killed.

Turned out to be a very healthy and intelligent individual.

Sad how flippant liberals are about other people's lives.

 

[Bunnykid68]

What is considered life is a difficult topic that many disagree on: is the point of "life" when the unborn child has it's own DNA, is it when it's heart starts to beat, is it when it is viable outside it's mother's womb, it is at birth?

Out of my own personal (very non-scientific) beliefs I would say life begins at conception. That is the point at which it begins to grow and develop and will continue to develop until it can survive outside it's mother's womb. An abortion to me can be defined as any external action that intentionally terminates that pregnancy. I was told in my 19th week of pregnancy that one of my children may be a downs baby. There were very difficult decisions and I held fast to my beliefs and as it turned out he is perfectly healthy and happy. I understand that not everyone who receives that type of diagnosis has the same result I did, but we cannot devalue human life in that manner. We are not "God" and by acting as if we are we remove that measure by which our country was founded.

For me it is easy to decide. When I found out my oldest son was in his mothers womb at 4 weeks I was excited that I was bringing another life into this crazy world, my son became a unique individual the day we conceived him. I have been blessed since then.

 

[Bapak2ja]

Life is very easy to determine. If you know it is in there, it is alive.

 

[Justin Case]

 

[Justin Case]

Such a bad time to be out of rep!

Rep sent to OkieGirl!

 

[rambone]

Should the Pregnancy Police investigate miscarriages?

 

[IndyDave1776]

Should the Pregnancy Police investigate miscarriages?

A miscarriage is an unfortunate but natural event, much in the same way that young children die of natural causes on occasion. It may be induced by deliberate actions, but it is virtually impossible to prove, hence nonsensical to even consider the question. Deliberate killing by a third party is clearly not natural and not acceptable, and is beyond the realm of even being ignored by anyone who believes in the personhood of an unborn child. State-financed production-scale murder is even more unnatural, and the argument that it doesn't happen (i.e., government financing) consists of the thinnest veil of smoke without those making it having gone to the trouble of supplying mirrors.

When it is said and done, this issue is a black hole of time and effort when we are facing some of the most severe problems in our history, but even under such extreme circumstances, I cannot condone the murder of any person, particularly the most innocent among us.

 

[Carmelbythecorn]

Abortion is a complicated issue, because people are going to do what they are going to do. Often, because something is illegal or legal has little bearing on people's behavior. I believe that as human beings, our Creator has provided us unlimited liberty. He has said that life and death are set before us - and encourages us to choose life over death. His plan also allows for personal responsibility for one's decisions.

Our political reality has done much to remove the consequences of our decisions and thus the corresponding personal responsibility. My libertarian bent would like to see Roe V Wade reversed, so that the issue is left to the states. Let the states decide what is right for their citizenry. Unfortunately, the Judicial has seen fit to make this decision for all of us.

Also, no federal funding. No federal mandates about what should be or should not be done. If someone wants an abortion (and the state in which they reside has deemed that legal) let them pay for it themselves. Let the organizations that vehemently support abortions help with funding. Don't take my money from me forcibly (taxation) and spend it in ways I don't wish for it to be spent.

Only a limited government is truly morally acceptable to a diverse society.

 

[Brian S.]

Here is a good article from the Objectivist perspective, to which I subscribe.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Here is a good article from the Objectivist perspective, to which I subscribe.

That argument would be perfectly valid if the argument were in fact over the freedom of one individual to do as she will with her own body. The problem is that in practice the argument revolves around giving a one woman the absolute choice not only over herself but two other people. The lie that it is a matter of choosing what to do with her own body gets very tiresome. Giving her the power to murder one other person and/or control at least two decades of yet another person's life, neither of whom get any choice in the matter is most reprehensible.

 

[rambone]

When it is said and done, this issue is a black hole of time and effort when we are facing some of the most severe problems in our history, but even under such extreme circumstances, I cannot condone the murder of any person, particularly the most innocent among us.

Yes it does seem like a black hole of resources. I don't think government is an appropriate solution to everything I don't condone.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Yes it does seem like a black hole of resources. I don't think government is an appropriate solution to everything I don't condone.

I would argue that, under the Tenth Amendment, it is not a federal prerogative to prohibit or guarantee (or, worse yet, fund providers of) abortion. At the state level, I believe in equality before the law, I believe that an unborn child is in fact a person, and as such is entitled to equal protection from murder. Aside from that the only acceptable solution which would provide equality is to eliminate prohibitions against murder completely.

Needless to say, this would be much easier for me both in terms of not getting dragged into a political black hole and for assuaging my conscience if I believed that the unborn child is not a person, but since that is not the case, nor will it be, I cannot turn a blind eye to the murder of those who have done nothing to warrant it.

Condoning things of which I disapprove (like drug use) is one thing. Let people do to themselves as they choose. Murdering someone else is not a decision regarding one's self, nor is being able to control two decades of the life of someone else who has no influence whatsoever over the decision.

 

[OkieGirl]

Should the Pregnancy Police investigate miscarriages?

Interesting question. I think the point the OP is trying to discuss is the disparity between the definition of life when applied to an unborn child versus nearly anything else. The discussion has always been tied back to a woman's choice about her body but everything else seems to be blurred into the background as to the affect of choosing abortion on the child, it's father, her ability to have children in the future, and the emotional/mental ramifications to her in the future.

In regard to the "pregnancy police", the discussion in this thread is about abortions done in medical clinics and these would be clearly documented in the mothers medical record (instruments used, type of and length of anesthesia provided, length of surgery, etc...), and billed and paid by their insurance company (imagine the impact of that since Roe -v- Wade to our rising insurance costs but that is another discussion entirely). Today when a woman miscarries, depending on how far along the pregnancy is, there is testing done on the child and mother to try and determine the cause. This is an attempt by the patient and the medical providers to help prevent future miscarriages.

 

[CountryBoy1981]

Yes it does seem like a black hole of resources. I don't think government is an appropriate solution to everything I don't condone.

At what point do you think the government resources should step in or should they not step in at all? Should the government investigate when a toddler falls into a drowns in a bucket of water (I don't see this as being much different than investigating abortions as both are hard to prove). You can't have it both ways.

I understand where you are coming from but we either need to respect all human life or leave it for a court to decide arbitrarily.