Abortion: The unexplored issue

[IndyDave1776]

How do you envision the enforcement of abortion bans working exactly? Let's work through it and discuss. Should miscarriages be criminal investigations? What should be the penalties? Should drinking alcohol while pregnant be attempted murder (or pharmaceuticals, smoking cigarettes, etc)?

There are a lot of "pro-life" leaning people who think the enforcement aspects are too complicated to overcome with more laws and the Pregnancy Police. Abortion bans sound nice on paper, but what do they look like in real life?

What does an abortion ban look like on the street? First, I would have to consider this the same as any other murder. For those who believe that we are in fact discussion a separate individual life, there is not escape from this other than flagrant dishonesty which turns on accepting murder for the sake of convenience which I can no more do than accept the random execution of young children at school for the sake of convenience (but the statists can if it supports their political agendas).

Simply put, it would eliminate the industrialized production scale murder of the innocent. There is not way to deal with every situation, just as not every murder is solved and Kinnesaw, Georgia never inspected homes to make sure that they do in fact have a gun. It would also address the notion that being inconvenient by virtue of existing is not an offense worthy of execution. Charlie Manson got better treatment than that!

I am also surprised that no one picked up on the second half of my original post. As it stands, one individual has absolute control over the life or death of another, and enough control to make a third individual's life miserable for decades. No one seems to have noticed this.

 

[IndyDave1776]

I don't agree with banning abortion, a woman should have the right to choose what she wants to do with her body, whether it be having a child or not.

Already enough things being banned in this day and age as it is, government needs to stay out of things like this.

I have a couple of questions. Is your position based on the belief that personhood does not exist prior to birth? What about the man who one way or other will have the next couple of decades and arguably the rest of his life radically impacted by a decision in which he has no influence whatsoever?

 

[CountryBoy1981]

I can't understand any argument in favor of abortion. If the argument is that a "fetus" can't live outside the mother's womb what is stopping the argument from being made that the baby can't live without being dependent on the mother (or another human being). Isn't a human being to some people just a collection of living cells? What makes a baby's collection of living cells any different from a fetuses living cells?

Actually, this argument has already been made by Obama's Science Czar Holdren:

Holdren argues that people during the early years after birth, cannot yet be defined as human beings . . . it may not be surprising to learn that he does not shy away from coercive abortion policies or other such measures to scale back the population.

Holdren: Infants Not Human Beings | ExplosiveReports.Com

When you leave arguments up to an arbitrary line as "a woman's right" you also reserve the right for that arbitrary line to be changed at some later point in time as it contains no real logic to the argument.

 

[DragonGunner]

I don't agree with banning abortion, a woman should have the right to choose what she wants to do with her body, whether it be having a child or not.

Already enough things being banned in this day and age as it is, government needs to stay out of things like this.

So then you agree that banning life, and making abortion legal for the first time in 1972 was wrong.

 

[Osobuco]

WOW - an abortion debate on INGO. OK I'll bite

Fundamentally you have to ask yourself if the unborn child is a unique human being or not. If it is then you have to ask when it becomes unique. Science has demonstrated it is unique at the moment of conception (ie the DNA is unique and it is uniquely human.) So at comception you have a unique human entity - you can call it an embryo, fetus or unborn child. All stages are uniquely human. Even identical twins have unique DNA - science has shown this. Furthermore the epi-genetics of identical twins are also different.

Anyway, if the unborn child is a unique human then it has rights afforded to it by the natural law/God/or whatever you think your rights come from. As such to end it's life is to end the life a a unique human entity and would be murder/manslaughter/whatever.

Science has revealed the uniqueness AND the humanity of the unborn to a degree never contemplated before. I am a scientist and I am convinced through data/facts and rational thought (not emotion) that abortion is unjust to the unborn (and unjust to the mother for that matter, but that is another discussion altogether). There may be extenuating circumstances when an unborn child must be removed from the mother however in those cases everything must be done to save it if possible. That said the internet chatroom is a terrible place for such a debate since one cannot have proper discourse in short snippets like this.

 

[Mark 1911]

In reference to implementing bans on high capacity mags, Biden brought up the Newtown massacre, and described over and over how the little victims had not only been shot, but had been "riddled with bullets".

I certainly understand how the thought of children's bodies riddled with bullets is disgusting to any sane human being. My obervation is this, HYPOCRISY!! Coming from Biden, VP of an adminstration that has no qualms with funding hundreds of thousands of abortions per year, for any or no reason at all, seems to me to be hypocrisy at its very worst. This comes from an admimistration that wants to take guns away from law-abiding, hard-working, responsible people who have never killed an innocent person and would never dream of killing an innocent person, but on the other hand this is the same administration that advocates killing hundreds of thousands of innocent children every year. That is tuly disgusting, and TRULY insane. Obama and Biden make me sick.

 

[Bunnykid68]

I don't agree with banning abortion, a woman should have the right to choose what she wants to do with her body, whether it be having a child or not.

Already enough things being banned in this day and age as it is, government needs to stay out of things like this.

Why does that woman have the right to murder my child just because she is providing housing for it?

And if she does not murder that child she expects me to provide housing for her and that child for the next 20 years?

 

[Bapak2ja]

Abortion is infanticide, or murder. No debate about the issue. The only question is at what point do we decide not to murder the child.

This year 333,964 infants were murdered by Planned Parenthood who received US$542.4 million in government grants and reimbursements. (Planned Parenthood received $542.4 million in government grants and reimbursements 2011-2012 | The Daily Caller) There is no rational justification for government subsidy of murder. Our government and our society gets more upset of the deaths of animals (whales, polar bears, puppies, etc.) than it does over the murder of human beings.

Our value system is wrong, evil. We sanction the murder of human beings and become irate over harm to animals.

I know I will be called judgmental, intolerant, bigoted, arrogant, and more. I care not. Murder is evil, and murder of the defenseless is an evil of the first magnitude.

 

[Survivalcookie]

I don't agree with banning abortion, a woman should have the right to choose what she wants to do with her body, whether it be having a child or not.

Already enough things being banned in this day and age as it is, government needs to stay out of things like this.

Then I say to the woman use birth control or get fixed or don't have sex...don't get pregnant...a baby is a baby is a baby...have you ever heard a pregnant woman call her baby a fetus.

 

[traderdan]

Our society demands the right to any and all pleasure without accepting the responsibility for those actions.Good post.

 

[Survivalcookie]

The problem with the argument about the "fetus" not being an individual is the fact that as soon as the sperm enters the egg a new DNA sequence is created which is different from both the parents. A unique being is formed.

This is also why women with RH- blood sometimes have complications were their body rejects the baby and starts to kill it as if it is an attacker. It's NOT her body. This is not just someones opinion, it's scientific fact (looks like the Bible is right once again).

When the "fetus" (come on, let's just call it a baby) is formed it is just as much an individual with rights to life as a 4 year old. At what point do you consider it human?

Some people, including Obama think it's perfectly moral and legal to do partial birth abortions. Another words it doesn't have human rights so long as at least it's head is in the mother.

Have you watched interviews with people who have aided in partial birth abortions? They let the baby come out until just it's head is inside the mother, then stab the back of it's neck causing the legs to kick around and then go stiff.

How can you not call this murder? How can you call that murder, but not call ripping it apart in the mothers womb months earlier murder?

This isn't even something that should be debated about.

You are right..There are woman who use abortions as birth control...get late term abortions because they want to go on vacation...sick individuals.

 

[Survivalcookie]

I have a couple of questions. Is your position based on the belief that personhood does not exist prior to birth? What about the man who one way or other will have the next couple of decades and arguably the rest of his life radically impacted by a decision in which he has no influence whatsoever?

I wonder how many men have tried to get court orders to stop an abortion.

 

[Bunnykid68]

I wonder how many men have tried to get court orders to stop an abortion.

I actually had a conversation similar to that when I found out my son was in the womb, I was scared to death she might want to abort my baby

 

[Survivalcookie]

Lat year we had a 14 ounce baby born into our family...he is a happy bouncing baby boy now. He was born at 24 weeks the limit on most abortions but some states allow up to 7 months...spent 4 months in the hospital.

 

[redneckmedic]

If a woman terminates a pregnancy at 18 weeks its called abortion, her right. If I choose to end it (whatever method I choose) its called fetacide... what's the difference?
This isn't about actually killing babies, this is about who gets to make the decision.... not how or why. This is the principal foundation pro- descrimination activist stand on... you can label the anything you want... racist, sexist, homophobic, whatever. You are taking (something or giving something ) from one group and oppressing the other.

With that said, ending life is murder, both genders should be held to the same standard.

 

[Osobuco]

If you want to really see the results of abortion there are images available.

I can tell you they are not for the faint of heart. And I am amazed there are people that after looking at these images can come away saying that the "aborted" are not human.

go here for a taste but proceed with caution:
Abortion - Pro Life - See What Abortion Looks Like

 

[The Bubba Effect]

If a woman terminates a pregnancy at 18 weeks its called abortion, her right. If I choose to end it (whatever method I choose) its called fetacide... what's the difference?
This isn't about actually killing babies, this is about who gets to make the decision.... not how or why. This is the principal foundation pro- descrimination activist stand on... you can label the anything you want... racist, sexist, homophobic, whatever. You are taking (something or giving something ) from one group and oppressing the other.

With that said, ending life is murder, both genders should be held to the same standard.

I agree with redneckmedic.

At the least the law should be just.

I modestly propose that we make it legal for parents to kill their children at any point until the child reaches 18 years of age and therefore a legal "person".

If your kid commits a crime, both parents are punished as if they had committed the crime themselves.

This would at least be consistent.

 

[freedomisn'tfree]

The woman isn't making a decision for her body, she's making a decision for not only the body, but the entire life of the child inside of her. It really is that simple.

I agree that the father should have equal say over what happens to the child - it is half his. If the mother absolutely does not want the child or anything to do with it, but the father does, then after birth the child should go to the father and that would be that. It isn't fair that a father would have their child murdered simply because it just so happens the woman has to be the one to carry it.

The fact that DNA is formed at the moment of conception should end this entire argument anyway.

"I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born."
-Ronald Reagan

 

[The Bubba Effect]

I think Grossman explains part of the psychology of many pro abortion rights people in his book "On Killing".

If you are going to participate in a system of mass murder, then you have to dehumanize the victims. The victims cannot be thought of as children and peasants, but must be thought of as fetuses and (insert your favorite racial epitaph).

If a person has an abortion or facilitated an abortion, they become inherently committed to advancing the argument that unborn babies are not alive. If unborn babies are alive, then that person would be guilty of murder.

Obviously, all patterns to not account for all individuals, but I think it applies.

 

[CountryBoy1981]

I wonder how many men have tried to get court orders to stop an abortion.

The court could not grant an order as that would be state action. The court/state cannot even require a woman to tell her husband that she plans on having an abortion. In Planned Parenthood v. Casey, 505 U.S. 833 (1992), the Pennsylvania legislature required a married woman seeking an abortion to indicate that she notified her husband of her intention to abort the fetus. The Court held that it was an undue burden to require the spouse to notify her husband. Planned Parenthood v. Casey | The Oyez Project at IIT Chicago-Kent College of Law