Abortion: The unexplored issue

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  • IndyDave1776

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    I find it disturbing that one of the most contentious issues of our time never gets addressed thoroughly and generally rests on a wholly inadequate argument that the sum total of the abortion issue is a woman's right to do as she will with her own body. This breaks down really quickly when you consider the implications for the life of someone else's body (i.e., the child's) and assuming de facto control over yet another person's body (i.e., the father's in the case of birth) for decades. Yes, I consider taking resources produced by a person's work to be exerting control over that person's body.

    First, we have the argument over personhood, which is chronically filled with disingenuous arguments and/or combinations of arguments. It is critical to have an absolute answer to the point at which life exists, or at minimum a consistent legal standard. You may notice that the murder of a pregnant woman generally precipitates two separate murder charges. Under the present state of law this is absolutely indefensible. The rule of law cannot tolerate a given individual, in this case an unborn child either being a person or not being a person changeable at any time without notice on the whim of one individual. It at minimum needs to be one way or the other.

    The next problem is that if a person reaches the conclusion I consider most reasonable, that an unborn child is indeed a separate and distinct life--a person--then abortion is murder under any and all circumstances under which it may happen. At this point, we must either categorically prohibit abortion or legalize all forms of murder. Any argument aside from this is made from the perspective of being delusional, a liar, or having a complete lack of any sense of objective morality and a complete absence of any sense of rule of law that would make Roy Bean proud.

    Second, assuming that we put the argument of personhood to rest one way or other, the next problem is that of equal rights. The present liberal mantra is that it is a woman's choice alone. Setting aside the moral implications, that argument would have merit if she were making a life-changing decision for herself only. As it stands, a woman can have an abortion on demand (i.e., make a unilateral decision to walk away from a pregnancy with no consequences). She can also choose to give birth. The problem is that assuming that she was not raped, two people hold equal responsibility for the pregnancy, but one of those two can act alone to decide the life or death of one individual and can deprive the other of the joys of parenthood with no recourse or perhaps worse yet can force him to pay, in some cases extortionary sums for the next two decades with the man being afforded no influence on the decision whatsoever. If there were equality, a man should have an equal opportunity to walk away with no responsibility (in case of rape, I would put a rapist on work release with the proceeds going to the child and after the child is raised sending the rapist to serve a prison term).

    If we are to tolerate abortion, then a woman should have the first option to opt out, but a man should also have an option to opt out with an equally clean break and walk away free and clear (obviously without any parental rights, privileges, or future contact). I would also like to see a vehicle in which a motivated father could have a child and allow the mother to walk away free and clear after giving birth under the aforementioned terms.

    The question is: Do we or do we not believe in equality? If we accept the personhood of an unborn child yet allow the murder of such persons, we have a huge and unacceptable inequality. If we do not accept such personhood, not so much. How can the thinnest pretense of equality before the law be made if it is somehow a violation of a woman's rights to relinquish control over her body for 3/4 of one year, but it is perfectly acceptable to allow her to control as much or more of someone else's life for decades? At minimum, I would argue that this proves that liberal ideologues are either very dishonest or else clinically insane.

    I have presented two points in which one cannot have it both ways with any pretense of honesty. What do you think?
     

    netsecurity

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    In the liberals view women have more rights than men, because women used to be second class citizens. It is all about social justice. A women can have a career now without pesky pregnancy or child rearing getting in the way. Women are "liberated" from the 'ol ball and chain. This is what lesbian feminazis want. And they get it because they claim they are owed it. After all, we are all created "equal", and a woman should be able to do anything a man does. This is about power, and killing babies is empowering in their minds. The last person who could ever stand in the way of women's liberation is an oppressive, dirty man.
     

    rambone

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    How do you envision the enforcement of abortion bans working exactly? Let's work through it and discuss. Should miscarriages be criminal investigations? What should be the penalties? Should drinking alcohol while pregnant be attempted murder (or pharmaceuticals, smoking cigarettes, etc)?

    There are a lot of "pro-life" leaning people who think the enforcement aspects are too complicated to overcome with more laws and the Pregnancy Police. Abortion bans sound nice on paper, but what do they look like in real life?
     
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    In the liberals view women have more rights than men, because women used to be second class citizens. It is all about social justice. A women can have a career now without pesky pregnancy or child rearing getting in the way. Women are "liberated" from the 'ol ball and chain. This is what lesbian feminazis want. And they get it because they claim they are owed it. After all, we are all created "equal", and a woman should be able to do anything a man does. This is about power, and killing babies is empowering in their minds. The last person who could ever stand in the way of women's liberation is an oppressive, dirty man.

    :rolleyes:

    Thats pretty much like saying all conservative men think that women should be barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen.
     

    DragonGunner

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    I liked what Ron Paul said....."Until there is liberty for the unborn, there can be no real liberty for us."...

    It was once legal to own slaves, the courts I'm told ruled they weren't human, they were sub human, therefore not being human they were not intitled to rights.......now the courts in their wisdom have ruled pretty much the same for the unborn.....what is the abortion number up to now.....I'm guessing over 70,000,000.
     

    NYFelon

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    :rolleyes:

    Thats pretty much like saying all conservative men think that women should be barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen.

    Actually, that's where and how I keep mine. Although, I don't use the term "woman", that's far too gender oriented and sexist. I use the title, "Oh glorious deliverer of beer and sandwiches."
     

    Sirshredalot

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    Abortion is a non political issue and should be left out of the courts IMHO.

    Same principle as birth control or gun control...."someone doesnt like it...so they think no one else should have it/do it".

    We have to be able to choose to do what is wrong, in order to choose to do what is right.

    God bless
    -Shred
     
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    Abortion is a non political issue and should be left out of the courts IMHO.

    Same principle as birth control or gun control...."someone doesnt like it...so they think no one else should have it/do it".

    We have to be able to choose to do what is wrong, in order to choose to do what is right.

    God bless
    -Shred

    But that's like saying theft isn't a purview of the court. Violating an unborn child's right to live (which we currently enforce on, say, a newborn infant or a toddler) is no different than violating an adult's, and in many ways is worse because a child is utterly incapable of defending themselves.
     

    Zephri

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    I don't agree with banning abortion, a woman should have the right to choose what she wants to do with her body, whether it be having a child or not.

    Already enough things being banned in this day and age as it is, government needs to stay out of things like this.
     

    MightySanta

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    The problem with the argument about the "fetus" not being an individual is the fact that as soon as the sperm enters the egg a new DNA sequence is created which is different from both the parents. A unique being is formed.

    This is also why women with RH- blood sometimes have complications were their body rejects the baby and starts to kill it as if it is an attacker. It's NOT her body. This is not just someones opinion, it's scientific fact (looks like the Bible is right once again).

    When the "fetus" (come on, let's just call it a baby) is formed it is just as much an individual with rights to life as a 4 year old. At what point do you consider it human?

    Some people, including Obama think it's perfectly moral and legal to do partial birth abortions. Another words it doesn't have human rights so long as at least it's head is in the mother.

    Have you watched interviews with people who have aided in partial birth abortions? They let the baby come out until just it's head is inside the mother, then stab the back of it's neck causing the legs to kick around and then go stiff.

    How can you not call this murder? How can you call that murder, but not call ripping it apart in the mothers womb months earlier murder?

    This isn't even something that should be debated about.
     

    indiucky

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    I don't agree with banning abortion, a woman should have the right to choose what she wants to do with her body, whether it be having a child or not.

    Already enough things being banned in this day and age as it is, government needs to stay out of things like this.


    It's already against the law to murder someone. The question is whether it is okay to murder another person because it's half yours and happens to be residing in your womb for 8-9 months..I.E. Is possesion still 9/10ths of the law when the possesion is another human being and you are wanting to kill the human or prevent the human from reaching his/her potential..The detail of ultrasounds and prenatal science in the last decade is what has really changed the debate more than anything. Let's say 50% of unborn children are female..Does that female in the womb have the same rights as the female in whose womb she resides???

    There are quite a few choices that are made before a pregnancy occurs..IMHO ofcourse...
     

    IndyDave1776

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    The problem with the argument about the "fetus" not being an individual is the fact that as soon as the sperm enters the egg a new DNA sequence is created which is different from both the parents. A unique being is formed.

    This is also why women with RH- blood sometimes have complications were their body rejects the baby and starts to kill it as if it is an attacker. It's NOT her body. This is not just someones opinion, it's scientific fact (looks like the Bible is right once again).

    When the "fetus" (come on, let's just call it a baby) is formed it is just as much an individual with rights to life as a 4 year old. At what point do you consider it human?

    Some people, including Obama think it's perfectly moral and legal to do partial birth abortions. Another words it doesn't have human rights so long as at least it's head is in the mother.

    Have you watched interviews with people who have aided in partial birth abortions? They let the baby come out until just it's head is inside the mother, then stab the back of it's neck causing the legs to kick around and then go stiff.

    How can you not call this murder? How can you call that murder, but not call ripping it apart in the mothers womb months earlier murder?

    This isn't even something that should be debated about.

    :+1: I have to point out that the bolded section is technically incorrect. Obama voted twice (once in the Illinois legislature and once in the Senate) against legal protections for babies born alive after failed attempts to abort, so being fully out in the atmosphere isn't even a high enough standard for that sorry, sorry piece of dirt.
     

    Zephri

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    It's already against the law to murder someone. The question is whether it is okay to murder another person because it's half yours and happens to be residing in your womb for 8-9 months..I.E. Is possesion still 9/10ths of the law when the possesion is another human being and you are wanting to kill the human or prevent the human from reaching his/her potential..The detail of ultrasounds and prenatal science in the last decade is what has really changed the debate more than anything. Let's say 50% of unborn children are female..Does that female in the womb have the same rights as the female in whose womb she resides???

    There are quite a few choices that are made before a pregnancy occurs..IMHO ofcourse...

    I don't agree.
     
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