Abortion: The unexplored issue

[ryan3030]

Just for fun, I will recap my solution for rape-induced pregnancy: The rapist will spend about two decades in work release with the proceeds going to the victim and child through the end of college for the child. After that, he will begin serving the sentence for the crime. Needless to say, no credit time or other consideration will be given for the time in work release. My guess is that under such circumstances, there would be very little rape.

Not a bad idea, there are problems with it as there will be with all potential solutions, but that's the most constructive thing I've heard suggested in opposition to my point...ever.

The case of rape though is one circumstance where I feel the decision should reside with the mother of the child. That despicable excuse for a man deserves no right to the child he fathered. She shouldn't be burdened for life (or at least 20 some odd years) because of someone else's poor choice.

I sincerely doubt the mother of a rape victim will ever be capable of giving a child the love it deserves, at least when compared to a child produced by two consenting parties.

 

[RockofStrength]

To those of you who oppose abortion in its entirety, what are your feelings on abortion in the case of rape?

I don't get the people who oppose contraceptives. "Just don't have sex!" they say. Right, that will never happen. My vote in that situation will be contraceptives every time.

In the case where unwanted babies are brought into the world due to lack of foresight, willpower, contraceptives, or what have you, I vote for abortion before placing the burden of the child's life on the tax payer. You know as well as I do that we end up paying for those kids.

What you're suggesting is killing a person merely because they are inconvenient. In which case, I have a list about a mile long of plenty of inconvenient people. I don't suggest killing them because that is bloody insane.

 

[ryan3030]

What you're suggesting is killing a person merely because they are inconvenient. In which case, I have a list about a mile long of plenty of inconvenient people. I don't suggest killing them because that is bloody insane.

So you want to foot the bill? Where do you draw the line?

It's either that or if in a hypothetical world where we didn't have social welfare programs, the victim (mother) would basically be told "Suck it up and deal with it". You're either socialistic or as much the cold-hearted bastard you accuse me of being.

 

[Bapak2ja]

Not a bad idea, there are problems with it as there will be with all potential solutions, but that's the most constructive thing I've heard suggested in opposition to my point...ever.

The case of rape though is one circumstance where I feel the decision should reside with the mother of the child. That despicable excuse for a man deserves no right to the child he fathered. She shouldn't be burdened for life (or at least 20 some odd years) because of someone else's poor choice.

I sincerely doubt the mother of a rape victim will ever be capable of giving a child the love it deserves, at least when compared to a child produced by two consenting parties.

The child, who did nothing to cause this evil situation, should not be executed for his/her father's evil act. The new born infant could be given to a couple who desperately desires a child whom they can love as their own. Not perfect, but better than murder of an innocent human being.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Not a bad idea, there are problems with it as there will be with all potential solutions, but that's the most constructive thing I've heard suggested in opposition to my point...ever.

The case of rape though is one circumstance where I feel the decision should reside with the mother of the child. That despicable excuse for a man deserves no right to the child he fathered. She shouldn't be burdened for life (or at least 20 some odd years) because of someone else's poor choice.

I sincerely doubt the mother of a rape victim will ever be capable of giving a child the love it deserves, at least when compared to a child produced by two consenting parties.

Having personally known two mothers of rape-induced children and having heard similar stories from several others I don't know personally, I am convinced that this issue is overplayed. That said, I would go with your position with only one problem. As much as I would like to be as liberal as possible with the victim, I am returned to the fact that an unborn child either is or is not a person and it is rigidly one way or the other, and as a believer that the child is in fact a person, this is no better than having you executed for a crime your father committed. It really is a difficult issue to navigate. My take on it is that compounding one huge wrong with another huge wrong does not make a right, although I will grant you that this is a much different situation than using abortion as primary birth control.

On a different tangent, in another thread, you made reference to the importance of having sources cited. I had some fun with this earlier today as demonstrated in post 17 on page 2 of this thread.

 

[ryan3030]

The child, who did nothing to cause this evil situation, should not be executed for his/her father's evil act. The new born infant could be given to a couple who desperately desires a child whom they can love as their own. Not perfect, but better than murder of an innocent human being.

I can't disagree with you there...nor do I have a better idea.

Like IndyDave said it's a complicated situation. Fortunately I'm not someone nominated to represent the best interest of the public in creating legislation

I still have to vote on it though

 

[The Bubba Effect]

To those of you who oppose abortion in its entirety, what are your feelings on abortion in the case of rape?

I do not think it is reasonable to murder a person because their dad raped you, their dad raped your sister, their dad shot your dog, etc.


Regarding contraception, I have no problem with people using contraception.

Regarding the cost to the taxpayer,we can't murder people just to save money.

 

[buford t justice]

If I were a woman( and trust me thats an ugly mental image) ,I would schedule a
D and C soon after the attack so no one including myself would ever know if I was pregnant.

 

[HavokCycle]

k, firstly as we all know, this is HUGE issue, in either camp, and on both sides there is a LOT of dissenting opinions.

i am PRO-CHOICE. i am also PRO-birth control, and as much as it pains me to say it, we as a NATION need to provide allocations for birth control.

why?

my father once told me on the matter of welfare, you either have to give the people bread, or theyll steal your ****ing bread.
same logic applies. say you have a teen couple that cannot afford a pack of condoms. theyre going to shag anyhow, and now, instead of two people im paying for, i have three. repeat ad infinitum.

we already have enough people in this world, have and have-nots alike, that do not take care of their children. instead of FORCING unwanted and unloved children to suffer a life of misery, and for US to suffer them, give the supposed parents a way to avoid another burden on themselves, and our system.

morally, im against abortion, but we have to be realistic here.

its quite equal to gun control - telling people not to hump is EXACTLY like telling people not to be violent.

as someone who cannot keep his dick in his pants ive been fortunate in that i have no offspring, frankly, do you guys REALLY want another Havok running around? however I take care of my responsibilities.

 

[IndyDave1776]

k, firstly as we all know, this is HUGE issue, in either camp, and on both sides there is a LOT of dissenting opinions.

i am PRO-CHOICE. i am also PRO-birth control, and as much as it pains me to say it, we as a NATION need to provide allocations for birth control.

why?

my father once told me on the matter of welfare, you either have to give the people bread, or theyll steal your ****ing bread.
same logic applies. say you have a teen couple that cannot afford a pack of condoms. theyre going to shag anyhow, and now, instead of two people im paying for, i have three. repeat ad infinitum.

we already have enough people in this world, have and have-nots alike, that do not take care of their children. instead of FORCING unwanted and unloved children to suffer a life of misery, and for US to suffer them, give the supposed parents a way to avoid another burden on themselves, and our system.

morally, im against abortion, but we have to be realistic here.

its quite equal to gun control - telling people not to hump is EXACTLY like telling people not to be violent.

as someone who cannot keep his dick in his pants ive been fortunate in that i have no offspring, frankly, do you guys REALLY want another Havok running around? however I take care of my responsibilities.

Reasonable argument, but on the other hand, if abortion as primary birth control were not available, I am inclined to believe that it would serve as a motivation to find a quarter in the couch cushions to drop in that machine in the restroom at the station on the way to wherever they are going. Realistically the 'practical' arguments tend to bolster the pro-choice argument. That said, there is no way that I could support the execution of innocents over someone else's bad decisions.

 

[HavokCycle]

Reasonable argument, but on the other hand, if abortion as primary birth control were not available, I am inclined to believe that it would serve as a motivation to find a quarter in the couch cushions to drop in that machine in the restroom at the station on the way to wherever they are going. Realistically the 'practical' arguments tend to bolster the pro-choice argument. That said, there is no way that I could support the execution of innocents over someone else's bad decisions.

With all due respect, I think youre entirely wrong. Regardless of how much power conservatives will ever wave in the Capitol, the influence of the nanny state is already said and done.
-if i **** up, the gubment will help me, someone else will take care of my problems- i

ts entirely another issue, but assuming or expecting people to take on their own responsibilities, thats not going to happen with the current generation (which sadly, im a member of)
at this point in our lives, we can pretty much already say that certain generations are lost. the next 20-40 years will be crap for america. what we CAN do however, is start planning for our legacy.

thats the entire problem with the US these days, the entire LACK OF FORESIGHT. no one gives a **** about next month or next year, or more importantly next generation.

my grandparents and parents gave me a legacy, built on blood sweat and hard work, and ill be damned if it fades away into nothingness.

 

[OkieGirl]

There are so many issues wrapped up in this topic that are never truly addressed.

If I were pregnant and decide to ask my physician to end an inconvenient pregnancy by way of chemical or surgical intervention it is not called murder. But if I were an 89 year old cancer patient and ask my physician to end the suffering it is murder? They both use medical intervention to end a cycle of life but are somehow not equal in their criminality.

I fail to see how eliminating the "birth control option" of abortion is enslaving women. I have friends who have adopted and were adopted, why is that option so easy to forget? In the United States of America the mothers womb is a dangerous place to be; not in a shopping mall, elementary school, riding a motorcycle without a helmet, or running with scissors.

 

[HavokCycle]

There are so many issues wrapped up in this topic that are never truly addressed.

If I were pregnant and decide to ask my physician to end an inconvenient pregnancy by way of chemical or surgical intervention it is not called murder. But if I were an 89 year old cancer patient and ask my physician to end the suffering it is murder? They both use medical intervention to end a cycle of life but are somehow not equal in their criminality.

.

thats the other hand of it that we fail to ever address with this discussion.
a woman's body is hers right?
so.... my body is what? if i decide to end the life of collection of stem cells thats fine? but my own life, if i'm sick, infirm, unstable, or just tired of living, thats illegal?

make up your damn minds.

 

[OkieGirl]

...but that is the problem isn't it...

With a pregnancy there is another life now to consider. Every woman knows how babies are made and that is their moment of "choice", anything past that point must be tied to decisions that take into account both lives or you call into question the value of ANY human life.

 

[HavokCycle]

...but that is the problem isn't it...

With a pregnancy there is another life now to consider. Every woman knows how babies are made and that is their moment of "choice", anything past that point must be tied to decisions that take into account both lives or you call into question the value of ANY human life.

i would consider it more of a problem of... what is considered life? and if you're going to have that conversation, what is considered a valid life? a quality life?

once you start putting letter grades on what is considered life, is the moment that we get a big F on our exam.

that said, lot of people in this world need to FAIL.

i'd rather see parents licensed than guns. which is more exploitative and dangerous? - but an entire other topic that.

 

[IndyDave1776]

I would warn you that once you start imposing anyone's idea of right and proper regarding 'quality' and 'life' in the same sentence you are opening the door to the solutions employed by some of the most notoriously evil regimes in history. Does a Down's syndrome baby 'deserve' to live? Autistic? Maybe those who just aren't too bright? Should they be exterminated because they won't have a 'quality' life and, more important to those making the argument at the top (even though they aren't about to admit this--even the Nazi's didn't--they took the sick, lame, and mentally slow to institutions where they were supposedly being cared for and retrained in useful skills within their grasp, but, of course, never were seen alive again) it relieves society of 'useless eaters'. This is the principle danger of not protecting all human life equally, making exceptions, of course, for those who have done something meritorious of execution; However, considering inconvenience meritorious of execution opens an extremely dangerous door. By some people's standards, I would be one of those society could do without. Even though I work for a living and can construct a coherent sentence or two, I am in less than perfect health. You could bring in some perfectly healthy foreigner with a work visa to replace me in half a heartbeat. As soon as it becomes generally accepted that inconvenience is an acceptable reason for extermination, we are in a world of s**t with only one way out.

 

[Double T]

At what point does the embryo become a fetus, and a fetus a life, and that life a baby? When does the "baby" start having nerve impulses and the perception of pain? Who/where is the person who can correctly answer that?

A politician? A preacher? A priest? A mom? A dad? A scientist?

The truth is, no one can. Since no one can, should we then condone the potential ending of a life? I don't think so. When would it stop? Would they then deliver and then just kill the baby?

 

[OkieGirl]

What is considered life is a difficult topic that many disagree on: is the point of "life" when the unborn child has it's own DNA, is it when it's heart starts to beat, is it when it is viable outside it's mother's womb, it is at birth?

Out of my own personal (very non-scientific) beliefs I would say life begins at conception. That is the point at which it begins to grow and develop and will continue to develop until it can survive outside it's mother's womb. An abortion to me can be defined as any external action that intentionally terminates that pregnancy. I was told in my 19th week of pregnancy that one of my children may be a downs baby. There were very difficult decisions and I held fast to my beliefs and as it turned out he is perfectly healthy and happy. I understand that not everyone who receives that type of diagnosis has the same result I did, but we cannot devalue human life in that manner. We are not "God" and by acting as if we are we remove that measure by which our country was founded.

 

[IndyDave1776]

At what point does the embryo become a fetus, and a fetus a life, and that life a baby? When does the "baby" start having nerve impulses and the perception of pain? Who/where is the person who can correctly answer that?

A politician? A preacher? A priest? A mom? A dad? A scientist?

The truth is, no one can. Since no one can, should we then condone the potential ending of a life? I don't think so. When would it stop? Would they then deliver and then just kill the baby?

Obama voted twice--once in the Illinois legislature and once in the Senate--against legislation to protect babies born alive after a failed abortion, and one of his appointed minions publicly made a comment to the effect that children do not deserve protection as human beings (I really wish I would have saved that one--I can't remember where I found it, but it does work with the overpopulated world theory).

 

[Double T]

Obama voted twice--once in the Illinois legislature and once in the Senate--against legislation to protect babies born alive after a failed abortion, and one of his appointed minions publicly made a comment to the effect that children do not deserve protection as human beings (I really wish I would have saved that one--I can't remember where I found it, but it does work with the overpopulated world theory).

I was talking full gestation. But thanks for repeating that...again.