A hard question for LEOs

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  • IndyDave1776

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    I can understand that given the quality of people with whom the average police officer is required to interact, it is easy to become jaded, particularly regarding those know or supposed to be criminals.

    I also see a strong trend toward criminalizing more and more behavior, much of it clearly beyond the proper reach of government.

    I would like to have a dollar for every time I have heard an argument on INGO based on the notion that 'the law is the law' represents a self-justification not subject to question and/or read the phrase 'play stupid games, win stupid prizes'. It always seems to come down to a final point at which the person posting will declare that the only requirement to avoid unpleasant situations with the criminal justice system is to be perfect to the state's satisfaction.

    I have seen arguments in a recent thread regarding the death of a petty drug offender suggesting that if a person gets caught coloring outside the lines, there is nothing wrong with offering that person a choice between years, perhaps decades, in prison for a charge based on presumption with no particular proof of actual intent (and in the case in recent memory, a grand jury persuaded that there was no intent to distribute, hence no felony) and a lifetime criminal record that effectively excludes you from polite society and any hope of a decent job, or being the police/state's b***h with no limits on what may be required.

    To our lawmen: You swore to uphold the Constitution, not the will of 51% of the legislature. Constitutional rights and basic human dignity are the right of all, not just the pretty people and perfect people. Where do you draw the line?

    It is also important to consider that these questions are not necessarily the product of acting as a criminal advocate but rather recognizing that if arbitrary and unlimited .gov force can be used against anyone, it can be used against everyone, including Yours Truly.
     

    LEaSH

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    43   0   0
    Aug 10, 2009
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    Indiana is different, Dave.

    It still is different. It wont always be this way: easy...

    I'm not LEO.

    But you know when you read stories of extreme authoritarianism from OH, MI. and of course IL - We'll get there too, soon. It's dept policy that drive so many injustices. Not a choice of dude-bro cops, It's their bosses that will make it that way.

    We'll be there too someday too soon. can't deny it.

    I love Indiana. I love(d) the way we live(d). But it aint going to last.
     

    griffin

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    I would like to have a dollar for every time I have heard an argument on INGO based on the notion that 'the law is the law' represents a self-justification not subject to question

    That's why LEOs will confiscate guns, arrest people with high-capacity magazines, etc. If they are told to, they will. It's happened in the past, it's happeneing now, and it will happen in the future.
     

    phylodog

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    Arcadia
    Dave - I've said it before and I'll say it again, I have lines that I won't cross. Those lines are very clear violations of the U.S. Constitution. While many may not agree with a lot of the case law which has been created in the past two hundred years you can not ignore the fact that it is still part of our legal system.

    I don't agree with all of the laws. I wish many were different or non existent. Because of my chosen profession I can understand why many were written. What I do believe in is our system of government and law. Is has its flaws but remains the best option on this planet.

    There are several members here who like to claim what they would do or wouldn't do if they were LEO. The bottom line is that police officers are paid to enforce the law. We are not lawyers, we are not politicians. We have no more authority or education to interpret the Constitution and write or repeal laws than we do to act as judge, jury and executioner yet we are expected to refuse to enforce laws that some people don't agree with. What we are is the easy target for those who disagree with some of the laws on the books or anything they see occurring in their government.

    I have lines that I won't cross. Those lines involve pretty clear violations of the Constitution. We (as a country) have allowed our laws to become muddy and complicated. The stakes are high for those on both sides of the badge. There are many here who claim they want to see the drug war ended but there hasn't been anyone planning a marijuana rally downtown yet. Why? Apparently it's doesn't cross their line either. Things change mighty quickly when you actually have skin in the game. Talk is cheap.
     
    Last edited:

    Denny347

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    Mar 18, 2008
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    Dave - I've said it before and I'll say it again, I have lines that I won't cross. Those lines are very clear violations of the U.S. Constitution. While many may not agree with a lot of the case law which has been created in the past two hundred years you can not ignore the fact that it is still part of our legal system.

    I don't agree with all of the laws. I wish many were different or non existent. Because of my chosen profession I can understand why many were written. What I do believe in is our system of government and law. Is has its flaws but remains the best option on this planet.

    There are several members here who like to claim what they would do or wouldn't do if they were LEO. The bottom line is that police officers are paid to enforce the law. We are not lawyers, we are not politicians. We have no more authority or education to interpret the Constitution and write or repeal laws than we do to act as judge, jury and executioner yet we are expected to refuse to enforce laws that some people don't agree with. What we are is the easy target for those who disagree with some of the laws on the books or anything they see occurring in their government.

    I have lines that I won't cross. Those lines involve pretty clear violations of the Constitution. We (as a country) have allowed our laws to become muddy and complicated. The stakes are high for those on both sides of the badge. There are many here who claim they want to see the drug war ended but there hasn't been anyone planning a marijuana rally downtown yet. Why? Apparently it's doesn't cross their line either. Things change mighty quickly when you actually have skin in the game. Talk is cheap.

    I can't really add much that has not already been addressed above.
     

    2ADMNLOVER

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    15   0   0
    May 13, 2009
    5,122
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    West side Indy
    I hope that there are many more like the LEOs above this post,respect.


    Most of them are the good guys . :patriot:

    There's a saying that " nobody remembers the good you do " and it's true .

    It's those few idiots with badges that we hear about that make the news all the time , never the good guys .
     

    Frank_N_Stein

    Grandmaster
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    79   0   0
    Nov 24, 2008
    10,243
    77
    Beech Grove, IN
    I can understand that given the quality of people with whom the average police officer is required to interact, it is easy to become jaded, particularly regarding those know or supposed to be criminals.

    I also see a strong trend toward criminalizing more and more behavior, much of it clearly beyond the proper reach of government.

    I would like to have a dollar for every time I have heard an argument on INGO based on the notion that 'the law is the law' represents a self-justification not subject to question and/or read the phrase 'play stupid games, win stupid prizes'. It always seems to come down to a final point at which the person posting will declare that the only requirement to avoid unpleasant situations with the criminal justice system is to be perfect to the state's satisfaction.

    I have seen arguments in a recent thread regarding the death of a petty drug offender suggesting that if a person gets caught coloring outside the lines, there is nothing wrong with offering that person a choice between years, perhaps decades, in prison for a charge based on presumption with no particular proof of actual intent (and in the case in recent memory, a grand jury persuaded that there was no intent to distribute, hence no felony) and a lifetime criminal record that effectively excludes you from polite society and any hope of a decent job, or being the police/state's b***h with no limits on what may be required.

    To our lawmen: You swore to uphold the Constitution, not the will of 51% of the legislature. Constitutional rights and basic human dignity are the right of all, not just the pretty people and perfect people. Where do you draw the line?

    It is also important to consider that these questions are not necessarily the product of acting as a criminal advocate but rather recognizing that if arbitrary and unlimited .gov force can be used against anyone, it can be used against everyone, including Yours Truly.

    So what got your panties in a bunch about cops this time? Not enough negative stories about them on INGO lately that you feel the need to chastise us?
     

    JTScribe

    Chicago Typewriter
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    10   0   0
    Dec 24, 2012
    3,744
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    Bartholomew County
    I hope that there are many more like the LEOs above this post,respect.

    I imagine if it comes to it, it will shake down the way most have in history. In the American Revolution for example, it's commonly said a third were Crown loyalists, a third didn't care, and a third stood with the Founders.
     

    CathyInBlue

    Grandmaster
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    I've become a firm believer in that, especially in the context of politics. You don't remember the presidents that oversaw peace and prosperity.
    I remember a lesson from driver's ed. The hallmark of a good driver is when you reach your destination and no one can recall anything remarkable about the journey whatsoever. THe presidents and other political leaders during times of peace and prosperity NEED to be forgotten and relegated to the pages of history books for people to consult should need arise, but otherwise live their lives in total ignorance of. It's the evil, corrupt criminals politicians who need their faces and names plastered up on every wall and displayed in every window, so that we will remember with derision the heinousness of their crimes against the people.
     

    IndyDave1776

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    12   0   0
    Jan 12, 2012
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    So what got your panties in a bunch about cops this time? Not enough negative stories about them on INGO lately that you feel the need to chastise us?


    It has nothing to do with undergarments. It is an open-ended question. Where the law and my personal freedom are concerned I would rather open a discussion than rely on my best guess of what may happen. History doesn't offer a lot of encouragement but then again we are not constrained by history unless we choose to follow a repetitive pattern.

    No chastisement intended. We have heard some disturbing examples, most from other states. If there is any hidden motive, it would be fishing for reasons to trust people who, at least in aggregate, I am disinclined to afford much trust.
     

    phylodog

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    59   0   0
    Mar 7, 2008
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    Arcadia
    There are plenty of LEOs that will. People have already been arrested for it. One guy was arrested by the NY State Police for having nine rounds in a magazine.

    I guess it's time for the citizens to stand up and get the law changed. Police officers can choose to agree or disagree with it just like everyone else. As citizens, they have no more ability to change it than anyone else. I don't remember the police being the driving force behind the news laws in NY.
     
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    rambone

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    4   0   0
    Mar 3, 2009
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    'Merica
    The Supreme Court has ruled that the President ordering American citizens into military concentration camps was constitutional (1944). They ruled that forcible human sterilization of the "unfit" was constitutional (1927). The court ruled that blacks had no standing to sue in court because they were property (1857). They ruled that private property could be seized via eminent domain and handed off to private developers with more political clout (2005). The court ruled that people speaking out against the WW1 draft had no freedom of speech and could be put in prison camps (1919).

    ALL "CONSTITUTIONAL". And that's just a few off the top of my head.

    Tyranny cannot be restrained if we posture one single branch of government as the final arbiter and decider of what is constitutional. "The Supreme Court said it was OK" is not good enough. Its a cop out. ALL branches must use their brains and obey their oaths. I'm not asking anyone to make up their own laws, I am asking people to stand down. Refuse to enforce tyrannical laws and orders. Use your conscience. Some day we all are going to have to answer for our individual actions, and SCOTUS & the legislature won't be there to point fingers at.
     
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