3 year old shot in head in Indy

[the1kidd03]

Sometimes talking about it and telling the story over and over is a way for people to cope with their grief and get it out there. My cousin lost her four year old daughter in a house fire. She was able to save her toddler twins but could not find the four year old even though she went into the house multiple times trying to get her. The police/fire people finally restrained her and would not let her back in when they arrived. She told her story to us multiple times every time we visited her while she was healing from her burns and such. It was horrible and you never get over a loss like that...ever. Please share our condolences.

Yes, I agree to an extent. It is beneficial to share their experiences in the right contexts. However, they are taking this pretty hard (understandably so given the circumstances.) So, making them relive it psychologically may not be the best thing right now when they already blame themselves. Even beyond that however, there are potential legal ramifications which may prevent them from wanting to share much detail publically right now that the media isn't addressing.


In terms of psychology, this was in incredibly traumatic experience. This type of experience can completely alter one's perspective on any number of things in the world. It can be very delicate to deal with.

 

[the1kidd03]

With all due respect, this is NOT an area where one gets to make excuses. It is the parents responsibility to keep their child away from harm from their own lethal weapons and they failed. There is no "oops" here, this was a fatal error that is beyond "my bad."

At this time, I would defer you to review the second half of post #153.

Sometimes things we think are within our control....aren't.

 

[USMC-FF]

I don't think a three year old would have enough strength to pull a trigger or knowledge to take the safety off.

Don't underestimate the strength, intelligence, & ingenuity of a child. They are curious of everything and will figure out how to operate anything!

 

[bwframe]

At this time, I would defer you to review the second half of post #153.

Sometimes things we think are within our control....aren't.

You cannot hide from the fact that the parents are responsible for this child's death. Some things you just don't get do overs on.
If you cannot keep track of your gun 100% of the time around your kids, then you have the option to lock them away.

Now a rougher question yet; don't these people have another child in the house? How will they change their habits?

 

[the1kidd03]

You cannot hide from the fact that the parents are responsible for this child's death. Some things you just don't get do overs on.
If you cannot keep track of your gun 100% of the time around your kids, then you have the option to lock them away.

Again, post #153.

At what point is something deemed "kept track of" or not? Is it within a certain distance? Is it within eyesight? What distance exactly? A distance which you THINK you can cover before anything happens? Are you CONSTANTLY watching that "kept track of item" or do your eyes wonder to other items which need your attention at a moment's notice on occasion? A moment is all it takes.

Again, sometimes things we think are within our control....aren't. Not EVERYTHING is an issue of "fault." Some lessons are learned which can't be explained well enough.

If I was in this situation, if I was the father, I would have felt that things were within my control too given the circumstances. After it turned out to be false, then I would have learned a lesson, but I cannot explain how that feels. Some lessons come at a cost.

 

[bwframe]

Again, post #153.

At what point is something deemed "kept track of" or not? Is it within a certain distance? Is it within eyesight? What distance exactly? A distance which you THINK you can cover before anything happens? Are you CONSTANTLY watching that "kept track of item" or do your eyes wonder to other items which need your attention at a moment's notice on occasion? A moment is all it takes.

Again, sometimes things we think are within our control....aren't. Not EVERYTHING is an issue of "fault." Some lessons are learned which can't be explained well enough.

Tell that to the dead kid.
Now does CPS pull the sibling out of the fatally dangerous environment or not?
And what about your kids? I'm beginning to get concerned for them.

 

[the1kidd03]

Now a rougher question yet; don't these people have another child in the house? How will they change their habits?

For both legal and personal reasons, I cannot comment on this at this time. All I can say is that there is far more going on than the media is portraying in a variety of aspects.

 

[the1kidd03]

Tell that to the dead kid. Now does CPS pull the sibling out of the fatally dangerous environment or not?

I don't need to. I get to tell that to the father/mother, who've learned this lesson the hard way while others get to armchair quarterback every single decision they've ever made and not been forced to learn from the same level of misfortune.

 

[the1kidd03]

Again, without giving any details....

I'm not a man of unfounded beliefs in fairytales. I'm a man of conviction. As such, I do not in any way believe that there is a single man here who, if put in the same situation, would not have felt it was within their control. I know I would have. Life changes quite literally in mere seconds.

Hopefully, as I can discuss more details later this will make more sense to some.

 

[bwframe]

...I do not in any way believe that there is a single man here who, if put in the same situation, would not have felt it was within their control.

Sure we would. We would have had the gun completely under our control, IN A HOLSTER.

 

[the1kidd03]

Sure we would. We would have had the gun completely under our control, IN A HOLSTER.

So, when it's not on you it's in a holster and/or locked up. You've never set it down for even a couple of SECONDS to address something else, to pick up something else, to hang your coat up, change your clothes, use the restroom, or do ANYTHING EVER that required you to be more than 2 feet away from your gun for a single second at ANY time in your life.

I doubt it.

Where is your gun when you first wake up in bed every morning? Where is it when you change your clothes? You're stating that there is NEVER a single SECOND of time that your gun is more than 2 feet from your body or not locked away.

Again, this is assuming it wasn't in a holster. That is a detail I don't have at this time. I don't believe that is the case but I don't know with any certainty on that aspect.

My point is not that there were not things they could have done BETTER to have prevented this. We have the advantage of hindsight for that. My point is that we all have lapses in judgment which last for mere seconds a lot of times. This was such a case and this was the price of that. I disagree with anyone who suggests they are and have always been free of such lapses.

 

[88GT]

I don't know the ages of your children, but with your children at age 3 did you knowingly leave loaded firearms around unattended where they could access them?

They are 4 and 7 now. No, I did not knowingly leave loaded firearms in their reach. But I did test them with unloaded firearms, and the result was always the same: no touching and reporting back to me that there was a firearm that needed to be put away. The point is that the argument that a 3 year old can't be taught safety is wrong. I easily concede that not all 3 year olds are going to learn the lessons quickly and completely. Some may be 4, some may be 5 before the lessons are ingrained and "second nature," if you will. In my house, mine learned it early on.

My question for all of the "hide it away" fans is this: what is your child going to do when he's confronted with a firearm not in your home and not in your presence. Does he know how to be safe around firearms in general, or are you relying on a few reminders and the fact that your firearm was inaccessible to keep him from harm? Sure, keep the firearms from their access. It's a prudent step. But I would argue that the fool/moron/negligent parent is the one who thinks this is sufficient. If you don't know what your kids would do when confronted with a firearm, why the **** not?

I can't answer for 88GT but her house sounds a lot like mine. I never knowingly left loaded firearms unattended on a kitchen counter, dinning room table, night stand etc. I do know that if I did, it wouldn't be touched. I tested with unloaded and the pass every time was "Mommy there is a gun out that needs put away" None of them touched it.

Education can start as early as they can understand. Age isn't the "key" it is each individual child.

Yeah, this.

Anyone that doesn't carry a round in the chamber needs to stop being afraid of guns, and MTFU and get training.

Anyone that carelessly leaves a gun unattended for a child to get ahold is a damned moron.

Anyone that doesn't put his kid in a full size pick-up truck is a damned moron.
Anyone that doesn't homeschool his kids is a damned moron.
Anyone that doesn't feed his kids non-GMO, raw foods is a damned moron.
Anyone that doesn't vax his kids is a damned moron.
Anyone that vaxes his kids is a damned moron.
Anyone that that doesn't teach his kids about firearm safety and relies instead on a lack of access is a damned moron.

Two can play this game. Saying it doesn't make it so.

Is there no irony in folks touting allowing their "trained" young children around guns that can be accessed in a thread where other parents have done the same and now have a dead child to account for?

You're reading a hell of a lot of crap into statements that were never made. I don't believe anyone here said that loaded firearms were accessible to their children. Nor do I recall anybody saying that it was a good thing, or even okay. I said my children won't touch a firearm. So if for some reason they came across one, whether my oversight for leaving one accessible, or in someone else's home where safety isn't as important, they would know what to do.

If preventable is your standard, then people should stop having kids because everything is preventable and we just can't have children dying, can we?

 

[88GT]

Sure we would. We would have had the gun completely under our control, IN A HOLSTER.

And when the kids aren't in your care at the time?

 

[the1kidd03]

Personally, I have long felt as if something is within eyesight then it is within my control to a reasonable degree.

I hate that something like this had to happen to make me realize that mere sight is not enough. I hope I never have to witness what this family did.

Now, that I have the advantage of learning from their hardship, I'll be able to better ensure I don't.

 

[Trigger Time]

My child has been taught from as early as I could that guns are not bad as long as the 4 rules are followed and MY rules as a parent too. I always had my child beside me while cleaning or working on my UNLOADED firearms (that should be a given). Also my rule is, as long as you ask permission from ME only and I give it, you can touch the gun and we can talk about any questions Ect, while I supervise. This is exactly how one would proceed at the range. And If you EVER see a gun laying somewhere I want you to RUN to me and tell me. DO NOT TOUCH IT!
ALL GUNS SHOULD BE TREATED AS IF THEY ARE LOADED. I tested my child numerous times with a airsoft gun. But I'd still never take it for granted that if they thought they could sneak in a touch they would. Assume the worst!
Also as a child ages old safe spots even locked ones might not be safe anymore. I don't even permit my child to point a pink toy gun at people. Other lessons will be taught with age when I feel the time is right.

 

[traderdan]

I hope the details are eventually made clear to the public..I am close enough to the situation (through a friend) to be able to say that many times,when my children were young, this COULD have happened...however unlikely. This was really an unusual event.

 

[the1kidd03]

Also as a child ages old safe spots even locked ones might not be safe anymore.

I agree with your post, but am...curious about this.

I would presume that with a solid education in discipline as well as the demystifying steps you're taking, that there wouldn't/shouldn't be any desire for a child to penetrate an actual safe. They already know they can handle a gun pretty much whenever they want and do so routinely anyhow. They know they would get into serious trouble if they did something outside of that and even more so by damaging things around the house. So, I fail to see where a child, who's matured enough to attempt cracking a safe, would ever be motivated to do so. That sort of makes this a moot point IMO. Unless I'm missing something here.

 

[the1kidd03]

I hope the details are eventually made clear to the public..I am close enough to the situation (through a friend) to be able to say that many times,when my children were young, this COULD have happened...however unlikely. This was really an unusual event.

I'm hoping to make things more clear tonight. I'll have to be very delicate in handling it so there's no guarantee on timing, but I will be working on it regardless.

I know too well how the media operates. I also realize that this is a unique learning opportunity for gun owners, however I still need to be respectful to my friends in their time of hardship while trying to facilitate that learning to others effectively.

 

[Trigger Time]

I agree with your post, but am...curious about this.

I would presume that with a solid education in discipline as well as the demystifying steps you're taking, that there wouldn't/shouldn't be any desire for a child to penetrate an actual safe. They already know they can handle a gun pretty much whenever they want and do so routinely anyhow. They know they would get into serious trouble if they did something outside of that and even more so by damaging things around the house. So, I fail to see where a child, who's matured enough to attempt cracking a safe, would ever be motivated to do so. That sort of makes this a moot point IMO. Unless I'm missing something here.

Yeah an ass whooping would result, but I never assume it won't be tried. That would make me complacent. I was a kid once too and grew up around a gun friendly household. I remember sneaking and breaking the rules even though my dad told me the same thing I tell mine. All I had to do was ask but I STILL was a currious kid that liked to explore and break rules. And I was a good kid. If I would have been caught I would have gotten the belt but I still did it. So I'll continue to bet on my child breaking rules behind my back just to be sure they don't end up with a bullet hole in their head! It's that serious.
edit: also locked up doesn't always mean a gun safe. I don't sleep behind a safe door but my edc is secured next to me as well as a shotgun I have in a mount with a trigger lock.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

So, when it's not on you it's in a holster and/or locked up. You've never set it down for even a couple of SECONDS to address something else, to pick up something else, to hang your coat up, change your clothes, use the restroom, or do ANYTHING EVER that required you to be more than 2 feet away from your gun for a single second at ANY time in your life.

I doubt it.

Where is your gun when you first wake up in bed every morning? Where is it when you change your clothes? You're stating that there is NEVER a single SECOND of time that your gun is more than 2 feet from your body or not locked away.

Again, this is assuming it wasn't in a holster. That is a detail I don't have at this time. I don't believe that is the case but I don't know with any certainty on that aspect.

My point is not that there were not things they could have done BETTER to have prevented this. We have the advantage of hindsight for that. My point is that we all have lapses in judgment which last for mere seconds a lot of times. This was such a case and this was the price of that. I disagree with anyone who suggests they are and have always been free of such lapses.

Out of respect and empathy, I have not laid blame or pointed a finger at anyone. However the assumption that this is how we *all* do it is growing tiresome. I have yet to find a reason to take my gun off, lay it on a counter, and walk away. I don't need to lay it down to hang up my coat. I don't need to lay it down to pick something else up. I don't lay my gun down and leave the room to change clothes, nor do I allow a child in my room when I'm changing clothes. My gun is 100% of the time on my person, in a safe, or behind a closed and locked door.