3 year old shot in head in Indy

[nakinate]

I do find it bothersome that a thread that started about a terrible tragedy has morphed into a mudslinging contest over who is safer with firearms. If you guys want to argue, why not start a "Gun safety debate" thread and go at it?

 

[Trooper]

There was a discussion in another thread about school administrators banning christmas activities. It was pointed out that there is a cost to freedom. For example civil rights granted to blacks in the 1960s had the cost of destroying the black family and the black community. Liberation for women came at the cost of high divorce rates and the break up of the family thus leading to increased poverty.

Several libertarians then chimed in that the cost of freedom, especially to have firearms, includes the death of children and mass shootings.

 

[lovemachine]

Anyone that doesn't put his kid in a full size pick-up truck is a damned moron.
Anyone that doesn't homeschool his kids is a damned moron.
Anyone that doesn't feed his kids non-GMO, raw foods is a damned moron.
Anyone that doesn't vax his kids is a damned moron.
Anyone that vaxes his kids is a damned moron.
Anyone that that doesn't teach his kids about firearm safety and relies instead on a lack of access is a damned moron.

Two can play this game. Saying it doesn't make it so.

I never said anything about relying on lack of access. There YOU go, reading too much into it.

I'm all for teaching children. But it's stupid to teach a child about firearm safety, and then go leaving a loaded, unholstered firearm laying around for anyone to play with.

 

[the1kidd03]

However the assumption that this is how we *all* do it is growing tiresome.

As is the assumption that this gun and child were both left to their own devices unattended.

 

[02roadster]

I do find it bothersome that a thread that started about a terrible tragedy has morphed into a mudslinging contest over who is safer with firearms. If you guys want to argue, why not start a "Gun safety debate" thread and go at it?

Now there is a productive idea!

 

[traderdan]

Out of respect and empathy, I have not laid blame or pointed a finger at anyone. However the assumption that this is how we *all* do it is growing tiresome. I have yet to find a reason to take my gun off, lay it on a counter, and walk away. I don't need to lay it down to hang up my coat. I don't need to lay it down to pick something else up. I don't lay my gun down and leave the room to change clothes, nor do I allow a child in my room when I'm changing clothes. My gun is 100% of the time on my person, in a safe, or behind a closed and locked door.

I hope,through all of this...we are all made more cautious. Many of us were raised in rural environments,and firearms were very much a part of our household clutter..Keys were left in tractors..Double bit axe,sunk into a stump on the woodpile. I remember riding in the back window of a 1977 Olds 88 (or something like that.) The world is a dangerous place. To join in the chorus crying for prosecution of the parents of this child,is to further the agenda of the anti-2nd crowd. I know that you did not personally push this idea..but some INGO members have.

 

[dmarsh8]

This happened in a different way in my town not long ago.A 2 year old died in a fire because the older brother, about 4yr,possibly got ahold of something and started it.I can assure you the guilt nearly killed the mother and the boy will unfortunately hear about it one way or another as he gets older. Hopefully not in a negative light to cause him more guilt. I can say for sure that the parents going to jail wouldn't have helped the situation in the least. However, I do feel it's necessary to be extremely cautious and take responsibility for knowing what is going on when my firearms are or could be around children. I do not have kids yet but if someone is coming over that does,the only gun out is on me and the others are not accessible,even to adults. My closest friends never even know I'm carrying when I'm with them. They know I do it, they just never see it.I think the temptation can arise for everyone in thought, about they shouldn't have left the lighter out, or the pool accessible but that's never going to change what already happened.I just feel it's always better to ( slow down to speed up) if necessary, when it comes to anyone having access to my firearm other than me.I pray I am 100% vigilant in preventing any unnecessary deaths as long as I live. So, I'll use events to educate others and prevent as many tragedy's as possible. Sorry, that's a long one.

 

[OWGEM]

This is a tragedy that I cannot even come close to comprehend the consequences. My deepest condolences to the family.

I have read the entire thread. I must say I really tire of anyone saying they can't disclose the circumstances while repeatedly telling others they are wrong in their thinking. Until one is willing or able to reveal the circumstances don't accuse anyone of not knowing the truth or how they would not be able to prevent something. The thread would be a lot shorter and it would have changed nothing.

 

[Bunnykid68]

This is a tragedy that I cannot even come close to comprehend the consequences. My deepest condolences to the family.

I have read the entire thread. I must say I really tire of anyone saying they can't disclose the circumstances while repeatedly telling others they are wrong in their thinking. Until one is willing or able to reveal the circumstances don't accuse anyone of not knowing the truth or how they would not be able to prevent something. The thread would be a lot shorter and it would have changed nothing.

Well, no one knows the truth, just the different stories that have been told, so it really is not an accusation.

 

[SERparacord]

*thread forwarded to the Brady Bunch*

 

[the1kidd03]

This is a tragedy that I cannot even come close to comprehend the consequences. My deepest condolences to the family.

I have read the entire thread. I must say I really tire of anyone saying they can't disclose the circumstances while repeatedly telling others they are wrong in their thinking. Until one is willing or able to reveal the circumstances don't accuse anyone of not knowing the truth or how they would not be able to prevent something. The thread would be a lot shorter and it would have changed nothing.

Not only out of respect for the family while going through this, but it also cannot be shared at this time due to the pending legal consequences/ramifications they face.

 

[bwframe]

I'm hoping to make things more clear tonight. I'll have to be very delicate in handling it so there's no guarantee on timing, but I will be working on it regardless.

I know too well how the media operates. I also realize that this is a unique learning opportunity for gun owners...

It doesn't matter whether we have details or not. Nor does it matter what the press says about it. There is simply no changing the simple already known facts: Those responsible for this child's well being failed. Not only failed to protect him, but created the circumstance that killed him.

You may be telling yourself this is a learning opportunity. If that works for you fine. Don't drag the rest of us into that mentality.

...the assumption that this is how we *all* do it is growing tiresome. I have yet to find a reason to take my gun off, lay it on a counter, and walk away. I don't need to lay it down to hang up my coat. I don't need to lay it down to pick something else up. I don't lay my gun down and leave the room to change clothes, nor do I allow a child in my room when I'm changing clothes. My gun is 100% of the time on my person, in a safe, or behind a closed and locked door.

^^^ This right here. ^^^
There is no laying the gun down. It's my responsibility to make sure that cannot happen. If that cannot be done I shouldn't carry around the children at all.

 

[mom45]

We are not the judge or the jury and I honestly don't feel I NEED to know the details of what occurred. This family will be affected by this event for the rest of their lives. They and all those close to them are in my thoughts as they deal with their grief and any guilt they feel over whatever role their actions (or inaction) played in the loss of their child. Accidents are preventable...car accidents due to drinking, inattention, etc., drownings, falls, shootings, etc. I don't care what the accident was, it was an accident and they all can be prevented by modifying something we have done. Does that mean we will never drive or be a passenger in a car, swim, climb a tree, whatever? No. Will there continue to be accidents? YES! Accidents are called that for a reason. When someone is involved in an accident, they normally feel a great deal of guilt whether it was their fault or not. They second guess themselves for a long time afterward...sometimes for the rest of their life. They can happen to ANYONE and thinking it will never happen to you is the equivalent of living with your head in the sand. It can and the odds are that at some point in your life, you will be involved in some sort of accident. Instead of judging these parents, I think they need to know that there are still some compassionate people in the world. I am not going to judge them because I know I have done things (or failed to do things) that COULD have resulted in someone getting hurt. Kids are unpredictable and do things that you would never dream of them doing. I'm sure if the authorities feel the parents were negligent in some way, they will charge them accordingly. If their investigation shows it was a horrible accident and not due to negligence of the parents, that is good enough for me. I don't believe much of anything I read in the media because it seems pretty much all of the media are slanted one way or the other and articles are filled with inaccurate information.

 

[clownsaw]

Not to come down one way or the other, but I just can't imagine. I was listening to the Colts game yesterday and hit the garage door because I wasn't paying enough attention during the third quarter. It just takes a couple of moments of not paying 100% attention, and something happens. Sometimes you get lucky. I wonder how many of us have been more lucky than we have ever imagined.

 

[SouthernStar25]

Wrong thread - sorry.

 

[nakinate]

It is being reported the shooter was on probation for Possession of Marijuana and Underage Drinking.

A 3 year old with those charges? I think not.

 

[Amkriz]

It's unfortunate how far off topic this thread got from the initial post. Any tragic event involving children brings a special kind of stress for emergency personnel. Most calls involving a firearm first require PD to clear the scene, then EMS and Fire crews can rush in and then it moves to the emergency room personnel. Following all of this PD personnel continue to investigate. This places many people directly involved with such a tragic event outside of any family members. In my own career I have been involved with a few shooting involving kids. After any tragic call involving children all I want to do is go home to be with my own family. I don't know the exact circumstances of this incident and I don't want to. I know there are good people handling it. My condolences go to this family. It was almost painful to read through a large portion of this thread. I don't understand why so many concern themselves with what happens to someone that is neither someone they know or even part of their own community. Much more productive conversation could come from this for example how to develop programs in a community to promote firearm safety and familiarization.

 

[churchmouse]

Not to come down one way or the other, but I just can't imagine. I was listening to the Colts game yesterday and hit the garage door because I wasn't paying enough attention during the third quarter. It just takes a couple of moments of not paying 100% attention, and something happens. Sometimes you get lucky. I wonder how many of us have been more lucky than we have ever imagined.

I know I have been. Still alive and probably should not be.

 

[SERparacord]

What brand gun was used? Barrel length? Caliber? Trigger pull? After all this forum is for firearms discussion.. Yeah I know, but this thread went off track long ago.

 

[the1kidd03]

It doesn't matter whether we have details or not. Nor does it matter what the press says about it. There is simply no changing the simple already known facts: Those responsible for this child's well being failed. Not only failed to protect him, but created the circumstance that killed him.

You may be telling yourself this is a learning opportunity. If that works for you fine. Don't drag the rest of us into that mentality.

Refusal to learn is both an admission of naiveness and the foundation of ignorance. If you cannot learn something from an experience, then you are doomed to repeat or allow the repeat of a similar situation. Of course, nobody here would be because everyone on INGO is beyond making mistakes.

The core idea of negligence is that people should exercise reasonable care when they act by taking account of the potential harm that they might foreseeably cause harm to other people.

There is a significant difference between negligence and true accident. Negligence requires the presence of a KNOWN danger, while neglecting to account for it. It does not include instances where things happen which you could not foresee, while taking the measures which were reasonable to prevent a danger, and having those measures fail. Negligence is where blame plays a role and where someone should be held accountable. This case was not negligent because it was not a foreseeable danger given the circumstances.

This is no different than saying gun owners are responsible for the crimes committed with guns which were stolen from them. The gun owner takes measures which they deem are reasonable to prevent unauthorized usage/incident, but that doesn't mean it's fool proof. Were they then negligent and at fault because their reasonable measures failed unexpectedly?

So, quite obviously yes details DO matter a great deal. Nothing will bring the child back. The family knows this and will forever have to deal with that. Therefore, placing blame on them, which I'm sure they already do, accomplishes nothing more than further stroking your own ego and demonstrating your feelings of exemptness from mistakes in life. That is unless one's intent is to promote charges being filed, in which this will be a very difficult case for them to win if they chose to do so.

Contrary to what the media presents, the children were not left alone to their own devices/unattended, random loaded guns were not just laying about everywhere unattended, and virtually no other aspect of "neglect" was prevelant in this case.