US Army says goodbye to the M4 / SAW, hello SIG Next Gen. weapons

[jwamplerusa]

If I remember correctly one of the military's arguments was improved widespread armor amongst our adversaries required a new high performance cartridge.

When I first read the reports, my first thought was the answer to defeat armor is put the round where there is not armor. In other words be able to make small Target area hits to the Head and femoral artery areas reliably.

Looking at the recoil of the new high pressure 6.8 cartridge does bring into question the viability of the round if it is a solution to better and more widespread armor. Frankly that is probably a arms race that you cannot win. You're getting a rifle with less ammo in the loadout, higher recoil and thus more difficulty in accurately placing shots. While your adversary only needs to make their armor more resistant. I would argue that the armor side is faster and easier to address then Small arms development, production, and distribution.

Personally when I first read the reports, my thought was universal adoption of LVPOs, and possibly some gwizz electronically augmented optics. If the probability of a small Target area hit to the Head from your average infantryman became much greater you defeat the enemies armor advantage.

 

[Leadeye]

I wonder if the cases are reloadable?

 

[DadSmith]

I wonder if the cases are reloadable?

I'm wondering the same. I imagine the way the cases are they are probably one shot and done. Guess we'll find out eventually.

 

[Leadeye]

I'm wondering the same. I imagine the way the cases are they are probably one shot and done. Guess we'll find out eventually.

" Satinless steel" sounds like a prime market for that chinesium stainless made from nickel pig iron.

 

[Ark]

If I remember correctly one of the military's arguments was improved widespread armor amongst our adversaries required a new high performance cartridge.

When I first read the reports, my first thought was the answer to defeat armor is put the round where there is not armor. In other words be able to make small Target area hits to the Head and femoral artery areas reliably.

Looking at the recoil of the new high pressure 6.8 cartridge does bring into question the viability of the round if it is a solution to better and more widespread armor. Frankly that is probably a arms race that you cannot win. You're getting a rifle with less ammo in the loadout, higher recoil and thus more difficulty in accurately placing shots. While your adversary only needs to make their armor more resistant. I would argue that the armor side is faster and easier to address then Small arms development, production, and distribution.

Personally when I first read the reports, my thought was universal adoption of LVPOs, and possibly some gwizz electronically augmented optics. If the probability of a small Target area hit to the Head from your average infantryman became much greater you defeat the enemies armor advantage.

Yup.

Who says 5.56 can't defeat someone wearing armor? Shoot him in both legs so he can't run away, then put ten more rounds into everything that isn't wearing armor while he's on the ground.

You end up with a 10x12" section of unharmed torso, surrounded by blood and hamburger.

 

[Tombs]

I honestly think the ACOG on every rifle was a bigger infantry game changer than even the AR platform and 5.56.

Remains to be seen what kind of optics are committed alongside this.

It'll be something heavy, big, and requiring batteries.

Who ever is making these decisions for our military has no combat experience or understanding of the fundamentals of what the infantry soldier needs to do.

I think variables are dumb for a military rifle, that you're expecting people with next to no firearms experience, to use effectively. Acogs are pretty much perfect, though I'd opt for the lower power longer eye relief models as I think they're a better fit for big army. They're dumb simple, indestructible, and incredibly light. They do their job just as reliably and just as intuitively as iron sights.

If anything the military would be better off standardizing on a 10-11" M4, a low power light weight acog, and fielding a suppressor for every soldier. If they need range, have someone lug a rifle suitable for making that shot. Average infantry are just defending the belt feeds. Keep their kit as light and as compact as possible, give them more ammo than they'll ever need, and they will be very very happy.

 

[Tombs]

Yup.

Who says 5.56 can't defeat someone wearing armor? Shoot him in both legs so he can't run away, then put ten more rounds into everything that isn't wearing armor while he's on the ground.

You end up with a 10x12" section of unharmed torso, surrounded by blood and hamburger.

M995 AP4 will smash through any level IV plate.

The army saying they need a new cartridge to defeat a wonder russian plate they can't afford to field is asinine.

 

[Tombs]

I wonder if the cases are reloadable?

Yes, plenty reloadable. If anything they'd have a much longer life span.

It's a good civilian cartridge for sure, it's just a dumb idea for an infantry rifle.

 

[DadSmith]

Yes, plenty reloadable. If anything they'd have a much longer life span.

It's a good civilian cartridge for sure, it's just a dumb idea for an infantry rifle.

So you don't see separation where the steel meet the brass?

 

[Tombs]

So you don't see separation where the steel meet the brass?

Shouldn't.

It's not an issue for shellshock cases which do something similar. The sig cartridge is fixed together even more securely.

 

[Brad69]

So we have a few issues!

NATO we pressured members to adopt 5.56 now we are not compliant?

Back in the day the AF adopted the M16 without approved funding. (GEN Lemay) https://www.everydaymarksman.co/resources/air-force-schv/
Congress said all forces will have the same weapons.

The Army and Marines will have the most input with the Navy and Air Force limited input.

 

[Tombs]

This is what we should have adopted:

Performance is close enough to 5.56 while just about halving loadout weight. You'd just about double the capacity of your magazines. Barrel heating would be significantly reduced, permitting more sustained fire. It'd also allow for far lighter rifles.

These are the kind of things that should have been the primary concern for selecting a next generation cartridge.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/nsdraftroom/the-msa-5-56p-t7443.html further reading.

 

[Cavman]

This is what we should have adopted:

Performance is close enough to 5.56 while just about halving loadout weight. You'd just about double the capacity of your magazines. Barrel heating would be significantly reduced, permitting more sustained fire. It'd also allow for far lighter rifles.

These are the kind of things that should have been the primary concern for selecting a next generation cartridge.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/nsdraftroom/the-msa-5-56p-t7443.html further reading.

Pretty sweet looking round.. wish we we would just shoot more. Adobt the marines rifle qualification while adding our pop up ranges. Let's just make us more lethal with stuff we have. Make our mortar teams more lethal. And have every solider proficient at call for fire

 

[Robert Richardson]

Well, you know that all you gotta do is give someone that can't shoot a better weapon. No need to train.

 

[DadSmith]

Like 7.62x51mm this may be a short lived cartridge for infantry use. 7.62x51mm was switched to 5.56x45mm in a short time frame.
I do agree they need something that is more powerful, but it should come in an AR-15 package with minimal change like the 6mm ARC or 6.5 Grendel.

 

[NyleRN]

Like 7.62x51mm this may be a short lived cartridge for infantry use. 7.62x51mm was switched to 5.56x45mm in a short time frame.
I do agree they need something that is more powerful, but it should come in an AR-15 package with minimal change like the 6mm ARC or 6.5 Grendel.

Magazine reliability has to be paramount

 

[DadSmith]

Magazine reliability has to be paramount

Nothing a lot of testing can't cure.
So far Duramag has made some good magazines for my Grendel and 7.62x39 AR's. I can't say combat reliable, but so far they have been perfect in my use. I'm sure many magazines companies will step up to provide a reliable magazine if one isn't already available.

 

[Ark]

 

[Refrigerator27]

Clickbait title is clickbait m4 isn't going anywhere

 

[BigMoose]

Yet it could be used by them all. It doesn't have to be Spec Ops only.

It probably is the better choice. This 277 Fury is an insane cartridge.