US Army says goodbye to the M4 / SAW, hello SIG Next Gen. weapons

[BigMoose]

Army has already sent out the request for 6.8x51 conversion kits for the M240 series...

I will see if I can find one for the M134 Minigun.

SAM.gov

sam.gov

The conversion kit should include all hardware and instructions needed to modify a standard M240B and/or M240L to fire the 6.8mm ammunition. This will include a new barrel assembly and may include changes to the weapon powering through updates to the gas regulator, drive spring, or other means. The barrel assembly may be either of the standard barrel length (M240B) or short barrel (M240L). Information on 6.8mm ammunition type, specifications, and availability should be provided.

So. It's true, goodbye 5.56 AND 7.62

 

[Tombs]

This will go down in history as one of the dumbest moves the military has made since the M14.

Someone with a clipboard decided that they wanted more ftlbs of energy, and more supersonic range in an automatic rifle for general infantry use. After we learned that was a massive mistake with the M14, and quickly dropped it for the 5.56.

We adopted volume of fire tactics and have practiced them for half of a century now. Our doctrine is based on this. The individual soldier will now have equipment not suitable for volume of fire tactics, and will no longer be able to carry the necessary amount of ammunition to fulfill the role.

I'm sure army brass cares about the lives this will cost.

By the way, folks that aren't familiar with this 6.8 cartridge. This is the .277 sig fury.
This is effectively a 7mm remington magnum in power levels, but in a 90k PSI cartridge the size of 308.
That might sound cool, but just remember that the ability to make accurate and fast follow up shots that connect are FAR more useful than the ability to miss a bunch with a vastly more powerful cartridge. And you'll have about half the ammunition, so you better not miss.

 

[BigMoose]

This will go down in history as one of the dumbest moves the military has made since the M14.

Someone with a clipboard decided that they wanted more ftlbs of energy, and more supersonic range in an automatic rifle for general infantry use. After we learned that was a massive mistake with the M14, and quickly dropped it for the 5.56.

We adopted volume of fire tactics and have practiced them for half of a century now. Our doctrine is based on this. The individual soldier will now have equipment not suitable for volume of fire tactics, and will no longer be able to carry the necessary amount of ammunition to fulfill the role.

I'm sure army brass cares about the lives this will cost.

By the way, folks that aren't familiar with this 6.8 cartridge. This is the .277 sig fury.
This is effectively a 7mm remington magnum in power levels, but in a 90k PSI cartridge the size of 308.
That might sound cool, but just remember that the ability to make accurate and fast follow up shots that connect are FAR more useful than the ability to miss a bunch with a vastly more powerful cartridge.

80K, but point taken. Ive seen video... this thing is a full on Battle Rifle.

 

[BigMoose]

Lake city is already spooling up ammo.

U.S. Army Awards Winchester $20 Million Series of Next Generation Squad Weapons Contracts -

Winchester has been awarded a contract to prepare to produce the ammunition for the US Army's Next Generation Squad Weapons.

www.thefirearmblog.com

 

[Tombs]

80K, but point taken. Ive seen video... this thing is a full on Battle Rifle.

And I've heard from people that killed a lot of people, that the battle rifles were sexy when they deployed with them, but in short order they were back to M4s as they kept running out of ammo and couldn't find a good way to carry enough to last for a mission.

 

[Squid556]

As a general issue infantry rifle....I'm forecasting sometime into the first few years, people complaining about the recoil and or wanting something smaller for "carbine" roles again. Complaints of less carry capacity on ammo. Lots of green recruits and smaller framed shooters are probably not gonna perform well with that kind of recoil. Kinda like shooting a 270 Win as far as energy. Might be like when the FBI went to 10, and then went to 40. Perhaps we will see some hybrid of this setup develop later. I imagine the 5.56 and M4 family will continue on for quite some time.

As a DMR, GPMG role... I think this move makes a bit more sense. Interesting to see where it goes.

 

[Cavman]

Sure glad the army spent all that money redoing all their rifle for full auto and new barrels. And all that money for the epr rounds..

 

[rob63]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe this is the first instance of an increase in caliber by the army for the main infantry weapon in our entire nation's history.

.69 to .58 to .50 to .45 to .30 to 5.56 (.223) and now to 6.8.

 

[tcecil88]

If it goes like it did when I was in the National Guard, It will take quite awhile for them to transition. Which means the Guard will be getting alot of Active duty hand me downs for years to come. I went to Iraq in 2007 with an M16A2, while literally everyone else was carrying M4's.
I doubt we will see too much surplus ammo as I imagine alot will go to the Guard & Reserves and the rest will go to places like Ukraine. Don't get me wrong, I would love some cheap surplus 5.56, but I doubt we will see too much.

 

[knutty]

US will still be fielding an M4 variant for at least another 50 years.

 

[Cavman]

Why is this a army thing and not a DOD thing? Seems every branch should be shooting same thing minus special guy stuff. But a army infantry platoon should be able to cross load ammo with a marine infantry plt etc.

 

[NyleRN]

So. It's true, goodbye 5.56 AND 7.62

 

[Ark]

I

This will go down in history as one of the dumbest moves the military has made since the M14.

Someone with a clipboard decided that they wanted more ftlbs of energy, and more supersonic range in an automatic rifle for general infantry use. After we learned that was a massive mistake with the M14, and quickly dropped it for the 5.56.

We adopted volume of fire tactics and have practiced them for half of a century now. Our doctrine is based on this. The individual soldier will now have equipment not suitable for volume of fire tactics, and will no longer be able to carry the necessary amount of ammunition to fulfill the role.

I'm sure army brass cares about the lives this will cost.

By the way, folks that aren't familiar with this 6.8 cartridge. This is the .277 sig fury.
This is effectively a 7mm remington magnum in power levels, but in a 90k PSI cartridge the size of 308.
That might sound cool, but just remember that the ability to make accurate and fast follow up shots that connect are FAR more useful than the ability to miss a bunch with a vastly more powerful cartridge. And you'll have about half the ammunition, so you better not miss.

I have to agree, at least for now.

It's astonishingly heavy, bulky, and fires this absurd high pressure rocket ship of a round that kicks like a cold war .308 and has about the same infantry carrying capacity. It'll be tipping 12 pounds with lights, IR, and whatever goofy computerized magic optic they adopt. Most of our soldiers can't shoot well enough for first round hits, let alone at the fantasy ranges the brass claims these will be used at.

And what do our future wars look like? Uh, urban fighting in megacities or island hopping through jungle in the Pacific. Perfect venue for a rocketship cartridge designed so 19-year-old private Trayvon from Indianapolis can pop a Taliban from 800 yards. That $2.50/rd ammo is getting mag dumped into the trees at 20 yards from a fighting hole on some glorified sandbar in the Paracels.

Everything is fire superiority, and fire superiority is everything. You can cheat it by adding accuracy, but in the end you need the ammo to maintain fire and you need the shootability to place rounds near enough to fix the enemy. Your fire superiority goes away when you burn up all your ammo in half the time. You cannot count on the enemy to present his head for the convenience of your hyper accurate scope and laser cartridge.

Just seems like a regression to the old days of treating combat like a Camp Perry match on the flat range. I'm sure it's an amazing weapons system for punching paper at long range with a flat trajectory and little drift.

 

[wildcatfan]

Great information and discussion. It seems like a much larger and higher recoil rifle would be good for certain situations but I bet it ends up being too much for a lot of the people.

 

[Lee11b]

They switched from the venerable 1911 in 45 ACP, because new (smaller framed humans) recruits were having trouble qualifying with old faithful.....(ie hitting the broad side of a barn), and went to the 9mm. This was the main reason the Army switched from the M14 to the M16 was ammo weight and capable load out. From what I've seen, they have LOWERED the Physical Testing scores so the over weight and video game playing generation can make it in the armed forces now......so we're going back to a bigger, heavier, and more recoil cartridge.......???? I guess they want to expand the medical core again.....

"Get me a medi-vac!!!" "Private Snuffy has heat exhaustion from carrying 100 rounds of 6.8.....also better check the shoulder.....bruised a little!!!!!"
............"Dang!?!?! where's the rest of my platoon???"
"broke brigade, Drill Sergeant!!!!"

 

[Kirk Freeman]

6.8 SPC? Or a slightly different cartridge?

.277 Furry.

 

[Jump62]

In the article their was a mention of an optic for the rifle called the XM-157 made by Vortex https://news.yahoo.com/army-picks-replacement-m4-saw-230105091.html . It has a laser range finder, ballistic calculator, visible and infrared lasers, and a compass ( what no built in P-38? ), Wonder when A&A Optics has one for sale?
Most of the Army is tied to some form of transportation ( either wheeled or tracked ) so having every thing you need in a ruck and taking a 12 klick hump to an new assembly area isn't something most non light Infantry do. I did three combat load outs while in the 82d in the 70s and had 10 mags ( 300 rounds ) on me and LBE, 2 bandloeers above the LBE and 210 rounds in the ruck. This isn't counting grenades, 100 rounds m-60 ammo, a 81mm mortar round ( for our mortar maggots ) and some nice to have stuff like food and a poncho liner. It is one thing for the " Good Idea Farries " at Tradoc or Forcom to make far reaching changes but these are the same Bozos that called the M-47 dragon a one man anti tank missile system with about 45 Lbs of the missile system added to what ever the gunner was carrying. Oh well the Grunts will make it work....somehow.
Jump62
aka Paul

 

[Rookie]

Wonder when A&A Optics has one for sale?

I already asked. Us lowly civilians don't get them.

 

[DadSmith]

I'm actually happy the army has come to it's senses, and are going to a round that will actually work well beyond 400 meters.

 

[Cavman]

I'm actually happy the army has come to it's senses, and are going to a round that will actually work well beyond 400 meters.

We've been using 5.56 for 20 years to kill a lot of guys at that distance and beyond. The m4 or m16a4 with acog became a very lethal combo. My issue is just sheer cost of all this. Why isn't this across al the branches? And is it really effective when even most combat units qualify once a year.