US Army says goodbye to the M4 / SAW, hello SIG Next Gen. weapons

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  • roscott

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    Mar 1, 2009
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    Pretty sweet looking round.. wish we we would just shoot more. Adobt the marines rifle qualification while adding our pop up ranges. Let's just make us more lethal with stuff we have. Make our mortar teams more lethal. And have every solider proficient at call for fire
    Can’t add until you subtract to make space.


    How about removing most of the required yearly training briefs and computer training programs that rehash the same useless material year after year? Streamlining the various iperms, AKO, EES, etc computer programs, as well as making a secure network that could actually be accessed by soldiers outside of .gov computers? Skip making soldiers police up brass and waste hours of sacred training time crawling around doing what civilian reloaders would gladly pay to do? Skip the mandatory retention briefs prior to ETS and actually let the soldiers to soldier stuff so they’ll WANT to stay in?

    We don’t need new rifles. We need time to become proficient with the ones we have!!




    Sorry for the rant. A bit of a sore subject, which I’m sure you understand.
     

    Cavman

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    Can’t add until you subtract to make space.


    How about removing most of the required yearly training briefs and computer training programs that rehash the same useless material year after year? Streamlining the various iperms, AKO, EES, etc computer programs, as well as making a secure network that could actually be accessed by soldiers outside of .gov computers? Skip making soldiers police up brass and waste hours of sacred training time crawling around doing what civilian reloaders would gladly pay to do? Skip the mandatory retention briefs prior to ETS and actually let the soldiers to soldier stuff so they’ll WANT to stay in?

    We don’t need new rifles. We need time to become proficient with the ones we have!!




    Sorry for the rant. A bit of a sore subject, which I’m sure you understand.
    1000% agreed. So much wasted time and money. Hell how much has the army spent on combat uniform changes and dress uniform changes? All the mandatory bs thats made up that sucks the soul and life. We should be spending the money on bullets and range time.. not hurry up and qual cause we got mandatory trans awareness.
     

    Tombs

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    Jan 13, 2011
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    Like 7.62x51mm this may be a short lived cartridge for infantry use. 7.62x51mm was switched to 5.56x45mm in a short time frame.
    I do agree they need something that is more powerful, but it should come in an AR-15 package with minimal change like the 6mm ARC or 6.5 Grendel.

    Power isn't really the issue. They apparently want more range for shooting at targets they already will never hit.

    It's funny how every time they develop a new 5.56 cartridge they never push the weight up. They're giving mixed signals on what they really want, like a bad relationship.
     

    Hawkeye

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    Jul 25, 2010
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    Dang! With all the expertise on INGO, my son did not need ot spend the last three years working on this project! :)
     

    blue2golf

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    Mar 13, 2008
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    Clickbait title is clickbait :lmfao: m4 isn't going anywhere


    Clickbait? Not exactly.

    Per the article...

    The XM5 Rifle will replace the M4/M4A1 carbine within the close combat force, and the XM250 Automatic Rifle is the planned replacement for the M249 Squad Automatic Weapon

    The SAW is going away, the M4 will be used by some units.
     

    BigMoose

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    Clickbait? Not exactly.

    Per the article...

    The XM5 Rifle will replace the M4/M4A1 carbine within the close combat force, and the XM250 Automatic Rifle is the planned replacement for the M249 Squad Automatic Weapon

    The SAW is going away, the M4 will be used by some units.
    The M4 Carbine will be retained as a PDW for non front line units . which ironically was the original reason it was even developed.

    123195767_1283536585329639_7402123196885114567_n.jpg


    Though, I am hearing rumors.. that in 4 or 5 years, the Army may start a PDW competition.. but the tests would not start until about 5 ish years, with adoption 3 or 4 years after that.. this is all rumor though.
     

    DadSmith

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    Oct 21, 2018
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    Ripley County
    Here is a 308 Winchester load 150gr SST
    Screenshot_20220422-144211_Brave.jpg


    3006 fps in a 24" barrel, and that is almost max pressure according to SAAMI. The 277 Fury is about 130fps faster than this in a 24" barrel.
    In a 16" barrel they are about the same velocity. Both using a 150gr bullet.
    My point is maybe they should have dropped the 7.62x51mm and went with the 308 Winchester. 308 Winchester can handle about 4000 psi more than the 7.62x51mm, and higher velocity.
     

    Leo

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    Mar 3, 2011
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    Lafayette, IN
    It does not really matter what kind of small arms we issue for the soldiers when most of the 537 leaders on capital hill are either incompetent or outwardly trying to destroy our nation to offer it to the global henchmen. That is the enemy that will destroy this nation, not some vodka drinkers or red book readers.

    Just like everything else, the timing and politics are suspect. Contract our weapons and ammo to a foreign player across the pond. Continue to make the old weapons for the Marine Corp. and our "deserving" allies. Continue to make ammo for the same. Trust others for the Army supplies. Bad deal.

    Just like when we could not finish stealth fighters because the French would not ship wiring harnesses because of some political butt pucker, depending on any other nation is not a good idea.
     

    teddy12b

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    I see this going about as well for the Army as the ACU uniforms worked.

    My concerns:
    1.) That kind of pressure in a round is one thing on a nice clean range, on a nice day. That same round in gun covered in mud in the middle of a rainstorm is a different situation. That makes me nervous.
    2.) I get the Army wants a bigger & more power farther reaching round. That I'm completely ok with and I get it. Personally, I'd have hoped for something different and there's plenty of great options to chose from out there.
    3.) Logistically, the expense and supply issues will take decades to replace every serviceable M4/M16 in the system. By the time they figure out this wasn't the answer they were hoping for they'll go back to the M4/M16.

    Ultimately I want those deployed in harms way to have the best weapons in their hands possible. Personally, I'd have rather seen them do something similar to the Daniel defense 6.5 creedmoors because they're still plenty light, but have a lot more power in a caliber that dumbyproofs wind calls.

    If I could make a wish, I'd swap every 5.56 barrel for a 6mm ARC barrel, and every 308 for the 6.5 cm and call it a day.
     
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    Hawkeye

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    That is really cool, Hawk.

    Is your son with the DA or with SIG? Or, can you tell us?
    He is a Lt Col, Infantry. He's been with the 82nd in various light infantry platoon/company/battalion and DIvision level positions most of his career and spent ~ 3 years with 4th ID mostly as XO of a Stryker mounted Infantry battalion. deployed to Iraq and 'stan many many times, starting with the original "Surge" in 2007. When he and his wife returned to Bragg a few years ago he was assigned to an Army-level command that ran these sort of projects. Now that he's an O-5 (since last November), selected for BN command, he's back at a division-level staff job at the 82nd and will take command of an infantry training battalion next May.
     

    Kirk Freeman

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    He is a Lt Col, Infantry. He's been with the 82nd in various light infantry platoon/company/battalion and DIvision level positions most of his career and spent ~ 3 years with 4th ID mostly as XO of a Stryker mounted Infantry battalion. deployed to Iraq and 'stan many many times, starting with the original "Surge" in 2007. When he and his wife returned to Bragg a few years ago he was assigned to an Army-level command that ran these sort of projects. Now that he's an O-5 (since last November), selected for BN command, he's back at a division-level staff job at the 82nd and will take command of an infantry training battalion next May.
    So, DA. A LTC soon to shape future Soldiers. You must be very proud.
     

    Hawkeye

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    So, DA. A LTC soon to shape future Soldiers. You must be very proud.
    Yep. You got that right. I know he was hoping for a line infantry battalion, but he sees the value of this as well. And his schedule should be a bit more predictable for his family life. I reminded him that Eisenhower had a stateside training and development role in WW1 and he turned out to have an ok career. :)
     

    teddy12b

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    Yep. You got that right. I know he was hoping for a line infantry battalion, but he sees the value of this as well. And his schedule should be a bit more predictable for his family life. I reminded him that Eisenhower had a stateside training and development role in WW1 and he turned out to have an ok career. :)
    You've got a lot to be proud of. Well done raising a good man!
     

    Noble Sniper

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    I’m still scratching my head on this one….. when I first heard 6.8 I immediately thought of 6.8spc and thought cool!!! But this new fury cartridge in the belt fed cool beans but in a battle rifle…. Stupid!!!! They should of worked with the 6.8SPC in my opinion but what do I know??? I know your new private will not fair well with this one I don’t believe……..
     
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    88E30M50

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    Clickbait? Not exactly.

    Per the article...

    The XM5 Rifle will replace the M4/M4A1 carbine within the close combat force, and the XM250 Automatic Rifle is the planned replacement for the M249 Squad Automatic Weapon

    The SAW is going away, the M4 will be used by some units.

    I had a chance to talk with a decorated Green Beret over drinks about this over the weekend. He was thinking that the SF teams will try to keep the M4 variants they use. He said that the consensus was that faster, more accurate follow up shots are more beneficial than what benefit the bigger, heavier platform might provide.

    Kind of like the same argument you tend to get for the 9mm over heavier calibers.
     
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