Vaccine coercion/bribery

[lovemachine]

He's got that pretty much backwards. ADE results from inefficient antibodies that can bind to a virus but not inactivate it. The antibody coating shields the virus somewhat from other aspects of the immune system and the cells that engulf the bound virus, expecting it to be incapacitated, serve as another pathway for viral replication that is underneath the radar

Using only select fragments from the spike protein, as the mRNA vaccine does, is thought to make antibodies that are ineffective against the live virus MORE likely

I’m still trying to understand all that.
This stuff gets confusing.

 

[BigRed]

I guess this guy should have just blown his nose.

News

www.fox5vegas.com

Looks like "Big Mike" had a comorbidity called "obesity".

 

[SheepDog4Life]

He's got that pretty much backwards. ADE results from inefficient antibodies that can bind to a virus but not inactivate it. The antibody coating shields the virus somewhat from other aspects of the immune system and the cells that engulf the bound virus, expecting it to be incapacitated, serve as another pathway for viral replication that is underneath the radar

Using only select fragments from the spike protein, as the mRNA vaccine does, is thought to make antibodies that are ineffective against the live virus MORE likely

This is a different mechanism for ADE than I have read about... my understanding is that the mechanism for ADE is that the antibody completely engulfs the spike protein, making it "stealth", but also allows for invasion of macrophages... and viruses that induce ADE have the ability to "take over" the macrophage, and instead of replicating virons, instead induce the macrophage to pump out massive amounts of cytokine inducing hormones... results in the cytokine storm, where the body attacks itself.

And, while a partial spike protein approach could make for a less effective immune response, the segments were selected specifically to be less likely to mutate (and remain dangerous) which is part of the reason the vaccines are still very effective against variants.

The literature I scanned before listed a couple examples of past vaccines where the full protein (or dead/reduced virus) approaches "unlocked" ADE potential.

 

[phylodog]

And, while a partial spike protein approach could make for a less effective immune response, the segments were selected specifically to be less likely to mutate (and remain dangerous) which is part of the reason the vaccines are still very effective against variants.

How is that statement accurate?

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/30/cdc...tts-covid-outbreak-were-fully-vaccinated.html

 

[BugI02]

I’m still trying to understand all that.
This stuff gets confusing.

In the case of Dengue, that was mentioned, there are four distinct types of the virus (variants? ) in circulation. If you get any one of the subtypes and recover, a subsequent infection by a different subtype has a much more dangerous trajectory and the reason is your immune system recognizes the invader as a dengue virus but the antibodies it produces are targeted at a different variant and are less effective. The infection can run wild before the immune system 'realizes its mistake' and begins making effective antibodies

The phagocytes that engulf the antibody bound but still active viruses can themselves be targeted or can convey the virus to other areas of the body where they can begin to replicate

 

[SheepDog4Life]

How is that statement accurate?

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/30/cdc...tts-covid-outbreak-were-fully-vaccinated.html

From your article:

While numerous studies have shown that the vaccines don’t work as well against the delta variant as they did against other strains, health officials say they are still highly effective, especially in protecting against severe illness and death. Roughly 97% of new hospitalizations and 99.5% of deaths in the U.S. are among unvaccinated individuals, U.S. health officials repeated this week.

 

[wtburnette]

I've not seen anything that says that... I've seen articles and people doing crude comparisons/calculations of cases/hospitalizations/deaths... but none that do that only for unvaccinated BY AGE DEMOGRAPHICS.

Something like 80-90% of the most at risk, the elderly, are vaccinated and they comprised the majority of the severe/fatal cases prior to the vaccines and delta variant.

Upthread we talked UK data... again, does it have outcomes of Delta by age group versus vanilla COVID?

You had said people in this thread were referring to COVID as being like the common cold or flu. I answered that those people were posting that about the Delta variant, as that's what has been reported. No idea about how that falls out depending on age group or anything else as I haven't personally seen anything about it.

We do and it is... arguing the reasons why the vaccine is a good idea for a some people who haven't taken it IS NOT arguing that they should be forced to do so.

We also have the right to eat ourselves into morbid obesity and smoke ourselves into emphysema and lung cancer... doesn't make a good idea nor mean your "forcing" anyone to do something by arguing against doing those things.

Again, I've never said if you're in the target groups at risk to not take the "vaccine". I'm just saying to everyone on the planet who is doing so, stop telling me I need the "vaccine" because I don't feel that I do. That is not synonymous with watching me eat myself to death or do other things that are bad for my health. That is letting me make a decision about my own health, that I have every right to do. Since I'm not in the target age group and have no comorbidities, my chances of having issues with COVID are extremely slim. My chances of having issues with the "vaccines" are higher, at least in my mind.

 

[phylodog]

From your article:

This is why I am hesitant. We have a CDC study and extremely high number of vaccinated people being infected by the Delta variant and we have ambiguous ”health officials” claiming otherwise. Who is right? Or more right?

Whey aren’t more unvaccinated people getting the Delta variant?

 

[BugI02]

This is a different mechanism for ADE than I have read about... my understanding is that the mechanism for ADE is that the antibody completely engulfs the spike protein, making it "stealth", but also allows for invasion of macrophages... and viruses that induce ADE have the ability to "take over" the macrophage, and instead of replicating virons, instead induce the macrophage to pump out massive amounts of cytokine inducing hormones... results in the cytokine storm, where the body attacks itself.

And, while a partial spike protein approach could make for a less effective immune response, the segments were selected specifically to be less likely to mutate (and remain dangerous) which is part of the reason the vaccines are still very effective against variants.

The literature I scanned before listed a couple examples of past vaccines where the full protein (or dead/reduced virus) approaches "unlocked" ADE potential.

This is just one paper on ADE, there are several more on MedRxiv and PubMed. I highlighted RSV because you will no doubt be aware that cases of this infection are beginning to become prevalent out of its traditional season. I also highlighted that cytokine storm is not antibody modulated, it is related to interleukin signaling hierarchies

Antibody-dependent enhancement and SARS-CoV-2 vaccines and therapies - Nature Microbiology

Mechanisms of antibody-dependent enhancement of disease and mitigation strategies for SARS-CoV-2 vaccines and therapies are discussed.

www.nature.com

One potential hurdle for antibody-based vaccines and therapeutics is the risk of exacerbating COVID-19 severity via antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE). ADE can increase the severity of multiple viral infections, including other respiratory viruses such as respiratory syncytial virus (RSV)9,10 and measles11,12. ADE in respiratory infections is included in a broader category named enhanced respiratory disease (ERD), which also includes non-antibody-based mechanisms such as cytokine cascades and cell-mediated immunopathology (Box 1). ADE caused by enhanced viral replication has been observed for other viruses that infect macrophages, including dengue virus13,14 and feline infectious peritonitis virus (FIPV)15. Furthermore, ADE and ERD has been reported for SARS-CoV and MERS-CoV both in vitro and in vivo. The extent to which ADE contributes to COVID-19 immunopathology is being actively investigated.

 

[foszoe]

So let's see - in a free country, you want there to be some official punishment for people who can't be made to agree with you? Did Biden thank you for your vote , yet?

IF they get it as the post says that you replied to, and they go to the hospital and still don't believe it???

Forced Sterilzation.

 

[phylodog]

Forced Sterilzation.

If we’re gonna go down that road there are a lot of people well ahead in the priority line. Flat earthers, race baiters and people who eat ketchup on scrambled eggs all go first.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

In the case of Dengue, that was mentioned, there are four distinct types of the virus (variants? ) in circulation. If you get any one of the subtypes and recover, a subsequent infection by a different subtype has a much more dangerous trajectory and the reason is your immune system recognizes the invader as a dengue virus but the antibodies it produces are targeted at a different variant and are less effective. The infection can run wild before the immune system 'realizes its mistake' and begins making effective antibodies

The phagocytes that engulf the antibody bound but still active viruses can themselves be targeted or can convey the virus to other areas of the body where they can begin to replicate

Different than my understanding... I thought the Dengvaxia vaccine expressed antibodies for all four variants and HF risk occurred if infection occurred when the antibody levels had fallen not just below a certain level, but within a titre band (below one level but above another).

 

[SheepDog4Life]

If we’re gonna go down that road there are a lot of people well ahead in the priority line. Flat earthers, race baiters and people who eat ketchup on scrambled eggs all go first.

Why do I think pineapple on pizza and bacon-haters is going to enter this discussion?

 

[oze]

He's got that pretty much backwards. ADE results from inefficient antibodies that can bind to a virus but not inactivate it. The antibody coating shields the virus somewhat from other aspects of the immune system and the cells that engulf the bound virus, expecting it to be incapacitated, serve as another pathway for viral replication that is underneath the radar

Using only select fragments from the spike protein, as the mRNA vaccine does, is thought to make antibodies that are ineffective against the live virus MORE likely

Ahh yes, the Trojan Horse effect. Thanks for the clarification, Bug.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

 

[BugI02]

Forced Sterilzation.

That REALLY fits in with the yellow arm band thing. Self ridicule, eliminate the middle man?

 

[phylodog]

Why do I think pineapple on pizza and bacon-haters is going to enter this discussion?

Rightfully so!

 

[BugI02]

Different than my understanding... I thought the Dengvaxia vaccine expressed antibodies for all four variants and HF risk occurred if infection occurred when the antibody levels had fallen not just below a certain level, but within a titre band (below one level but above another).

I was talking about dengue, not DengVaxia. ADE was already noted in natural immunity from contracting dengue more than once, the second infection was often much more severe. Dengvaxia brought the issue to the spotlight because its makers (Sanofi) failed to completely understand the process, or take the effect into account, when designing their vaccine, so they replicated the effect in a therapeutic given predominantly to children in the field trial

 

[wtburnette]

If we’re gonna go down that road there are a lot of people well ahead in the priority line. Flat earthers, race baiters and people who eat ketchup on scrambled eggs all go first.

Well darn, I'm used to agreeing with you man, but I LOVE ketchup on scrambled eggs (as well as on omelets)...

 

[phylodog]

 

[lovemachine]

In the case of Dengue, that was mentioned, there are four distinct types of the virus (variants? ) in circulation. If you get any one of the subtypes and recover, a subsequent infection by a different subtype has a much more dangerous trajectory and the reason is your immune system recognizes the invader as a dengue virus but the antibodies it produces are targeted at a different variant and are less effective. The infection can run wild before the immune system 'realizes its mistake' and begins making effective antibodies

The phagocytes that engulf the antibody bound but still active viruses can themselves be targeted or can convey the virus to other areas of the body where they can begin to replicate

And this is what’s happening when you take the vaccine?
Or is this what happens when you don’t take the vaccine?

I’m just a dummy trying to understand.