Dry Fire Warning

[Trapper Jim]

Just last Saturday I witnessed a trainer with her student showing a dry fire exercise. Ironically, in todays Shooting Wire (Reprint from The Tactical Wire) Shooting Wire Feature article promoting "Dry Fire Reset Magazines" I see reference made to this as well. Dry fire practice if done wrong can be deadly. This instructor was showing the student how to keep the trigger pulled when working the slide to reset the trigger and suedo charge the chamber.. As a side note this instructor was riding the slide home as well, but that is a different mistake. Unless I am not seeing something here, this breaks safe gun handling rules in a huge way. WHENEVER you are manipulating your firearm, your finger goes on the side of the frame. Dry or Live Fire. The finger is the most abused rule of casual gun handlers (and some Master Class shooters) to begin with... there is absolutley no need to promote keeping your finger on the switch unless you are pulling the trigger. Monkey see is what monkey does. This ranks right up there with the Blue Gun Associated Result. The association between improperly handling a prop equates to an unloaded gun for some. I have witnessed it. The unloaded gun kills rule violators most every day. The association between keeping the finger on the trigger while manipulating for a cheesy dryfire exercise can equate to the conditioning of the casual gun owner to do it with what he/she THINKS is a unloaded gun.

Dry Fire done right is a valuable exercise. Conditioning bad habits will get you kilt.

 

[OneBadV8]

I disagree just on a single point. I bought a solid training barrel (do they still make these?), and I kept my finger on the trigger to work the slide so that I could practice and learn to feel the reset on my gun when I slowly let the trigger out. This is pretty important and impossible to do otherwise if you're trying to learn to shoot to reset on your gun.

 

[JettaKnight]

Maybe I'm confused about, "keep the trigger pulled when working the slide to reset the trigger and suedo charge the chamber".

Is this in essence simulating the action of the slide recoiling - basically doing everything the same, but in slow motion?


Are the other two rules being followed? Then I see no problem.

 

[Trapper Jim]

I disagree just on a single point. I bought a solid training barrel (do they still make these?), and I kept my finger on the trigger to work the slide so that I could practice and learn to feel the reset on my gun when I slowly let the trigger out. This is pretty important and impossible to do otherwise if you're trying to learn to shoot to reset on your gun.

I have no problem with what one wants to do on a personal basis. Many of us have the skill set to do things safely and without conditioning bad habits. However, when it gets promoted, like the instructor and Vendors trying to sell things to the masses, the monster can raise it's ugly head and often when it is too late. Bang.

Riding the reset is a competition form following function. Many competitors have benefited from understanding how to ride the reset. However, in my opinion, it is a skill set driven practice that many CGO and Defense Only Shooters need not concern themselves until they have reached that level of talent. There are several jokes made about the victim bleeding out on the street with one of them being "I would have won that gunfight if I didn't have such a long reset....

 

[OneBadV8]

Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I see shooting to reset also helping reduce flinch and jerking the trigger. Maybe that particular student suffered from those bad habits and teaching them to shoot to reset would help reduce those. Also, if it's a brand new shooter, maybe they don't realize they have to let all the way out for the 2nd trigger pull to function correctly.

 

[2A-Hoosier23]

If I am understanding correctly, TJ your issue is that when one is focused on training NEW shooters, they should focus on the core fundamentals ESPECIALLY safety, and therefore not try to teach too much like trigger reset?

Do you have the same issue if one can teach reset to a newer shooter without breaking any safety rules, by simply having the trainee WATCH the instructor, paying attention to the gun and trigger as the instructor shoots live ammo and explains/demonstrates the trigger reset?

 

[OneBadV8]

If I am understanding correctly, TJ your issue is that when one is focused on training NEW shooters, they should focus on the core fundamentals ESPECIALLY safety, and therefore not try to teach too much like trigger reset?

Do you have the same issue if one can teach reset to a newer shooter without breaking any safety rules, by simply having the trainee WATCH the instructor, paying attention to the gun and trigger as the instructor shoots live ammo and explains/demonstrates the trigger reset?

The training session was only witnessed though, so there's no way to know if the student was a new shooter. Maybe it was the 2nd or 3rd session

 

[bwframe]

I can see both sides of this. Tuning in for more seasoned input.

 

[Trapper Jim]

If I am understanding correctly, TJ your issue is that when one is focused on training NEW shooters, they should focus on the core fundamentals ESPECIALLY safety, and therefore not try to teach too much like trigger reset?

Do you have the same issue if one can teach reset to a newer shooter without breaking any safety rules, by simply having the trainee WATCH the instructor, paying attention to the gun and trigger as the instructor shoots live ammo and explains/demonstrates the trigger reset?

One Bad V8 and I agree on more points than shows as this medium is not precise. To be clear, I have no problem with actual shooters shooting by riding the reset if that's what they want to do. Understand this, that on the journey of learning this technique, there will be surprise shots breaking at some time or another. We will assume that is safe on a stage or in practice. Again..in actual shooting the gun. There are ways to teach and demonstrate this using live fire. The slide charges itself. So one is in full control of safe trigger reset training if done right.

My issue is with DRY FIRE Training promoting the finger on the trigger while manipulating the slide . Dry firing can help with becoming one with the break on your specific pistol. It can help you identify muzzle movement. It can help your grip. your presentation, your sight picture and even mag changes and reholstering.

What I do not feel it helps is with riding the reset. The only way to know how a resetting trigger feels under recoil is just that. Recoil shifts your finger, hands and etc that dry rubs can't do.

The student and the trainer were non experienced shooters.

 

[Trapper Jim]

If I am understanding correctly, TJ your issue is that when one is focused on training NEW shooters, they should focus on the core fundamentals ESPECIALLY safety, and therefore not try to teach too much like trigger reset?

Do you have the same issue if one can teach reset to a newer shooter without breaking any safety rules, by simply having the trainee WATCH the instructor, paying attention to the gun and trigger as the instructor shoots live ammo and explains/demonstrates the trigger reset?

If your student can become Rob Leatham in one visit, then by all means teach the autorun method of shooting without thinking trigger reset method.

 

[2A-Hoosier23]

Thanks for clarification. I agree with your main points with some reservations -- I think, contrary to your argument, that one can learn their gun's trigger reset through dry fire even without the recoil and flash/bang of live fire, but at the same time totally agree with your main argument that this is an unnecessary habit to teach a less-experienced shooter. I myself work trigger reset during dry fire and find it helpful, I'm also not a new shooter and I dry fire daily. Baby steps.

I don't really understand your most recent reply though -- I get that Rob Leatham is a great shooter but not sure what you meant by " autorun method of shooting without thinking trigger reset method"

 

[breakingcontact]

But how can a student feel cool if you make them crawl and walk before running?

Lots of "trainers" out there, few good ones.

 

[GIJEW]

TJ, the author AGREED with your objection to manipulating the slide with one's finger on the trigger. It seems that this "reset magazine" is supposed to address that by reseting the trigger so that all one has to do is just press the trigger 'shot' after'shot'--like dryfire with a double action revolver. I don't see what the problem is.

 

[Trapper Jim]

TJ, the author AGREED with your objection to manipulating the slide with one's finger on the trigger. It seems that this "reset magazine" is supposed to address that by reseting the trigger so that all one has to do is just press the trigger 'shot' after'shot'--like dryfire with a double action revolver. I don't see what the problem is.

my bad if I wasn’t clear... I have no knowledge or experience or have even seen this new product. I will get one and come to my own conclusions. My whole point was I am against finger on trigger while cocking the slide which according to this article many do it. As evidenced by the event I witnessed last Saturday this practice has trickled down to the newer shooters. Hope I’m clear on this. Thank you for posting.

 

[breakingcontact]

This post reminds me to find a SIRT pistol. I looked into the mags that reset the trigger, didn't sound great.

 

[OneBadV8]

my bad if I wasn’t clear... I have no knowledge or experience or have even seen this new product. I will get one and come to my own conclusions. My whole point was I am against finger on trigger while cocking the slide which according to this article many do it. As evidenced by the event I witnessed last Saturday this practice has trickled down to the newer shooters. Hope I’m clear on this. Thank you for posting.

I understand what you're saying, and I agree that we don't want to encourage muscle memory of having a finger on the trigger while running the slide via dry-fire practice. I totally get where you're coming from and support that idea fully for newer shooters. Need to get the fundamentals down pretty well first. 100% Agree.

However, let's say hypothetically that ammo is not only crazy expensive, but suddenly very hard to find. AND for arguments sake, lets say I have a striker fired pistol (Glock, M&P, VP9, etc etc). And for now, let's throw out the "new" shooter part. And let's also say I'm trying to work on shooting to reset to prevent flinching and have better control on follow up shots whether for competition or otherwise. How would I go about accomplishing this without practicing running the slide with my finger on the trigger?

I think if you had a gun with an external hammer that was DAO, this would be super easy and the best/safest way to prevent bad muscle memory habits.

 

[Trapper Jim]

Thanks for clarification

I don't really understand your most recent reply though -- I get that Rob Leatham is a great shooter but not sure what you meant by " autorun method of shooting without thinking trigger reset method"

Just a little off the wall humor. Riding the reset decreases the take up, travel, and force needed to break the subsequent shot. Much like the famous double tap. Many shooters run up a lot of penalties in the game because of being in “autorun” mode and double tap one round only targets. RTR also affects or eliminates follow thru which is needed for the rare accurate shot. When I talk ability driven some of these techniques or products should be brought on after the CGO has reached a better skill set. Kinda like a 16 year old getting an Indy Racer for his first car. I hope this helps and remember, these are just my opinions. No one has to agree.

 

[OneBadV8]

This isn't an EXACT example of what Trapper Jim is talking about, but it's sorta similar. You have less trigger to pull and possibly a slightly lighter break. Imagine this isn't a revolver and the same thing can happen.


[video=youtube;zGKyhilGZWA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGKyhilGZWA[/video]

 

[Trapper Jim]

I understand what you're saying, and I agree that we don't want to encourage muscle memory of having a finger on the trigger while running the slide via dry-fire practice. I totally get where you're coming from and support that idea fully for newer shooters. Need to get the fundamentals down pretty well first. 100% Agree.

However, let's say hypothetically that ammo is not only crazy expensive, but suddenly very hard to find. AND for arguments sake, lets say I have a striker fired pistol (Glock, M&P, VP9, etc etc). And for now, let's throw out the "new" shooter part. And let's also say I'm trying to work on shooting to reset to prevent flinching and have better control on follow up shots whether for competition or otherwise. How would I go about accomplishing this without practicing running the slide with my finger on the trigger?

If you think this dry technique of RTR will help with your actual flinch in real shooting, I do not have an answer.

 

[Cameramonkey]

This post reminds me to find a SIRT pistol. I looked into the mags that reset the trigger, didn't sound great.

And if its a glock, you'll spend just as much for the resetting trigger mechanism as you will for the SIRT itself.