Finally we have a LEGAL directive on how to deal with armed citizens.

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  • Denny347

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    We finally have a legal directive that was issued to ALL employees on how to deal with armed citizens. This is coming ahead of the NRA Convention but it is not JUST for that. This sounds like the work of our dept lawyer who is a fellow officer and a firearms instructor. I'm happy to see this addressed in a common sense and LEGAL manner. I am not posting the actual bulletin but rather I cut/posted the body. I added/deleted/changed nothing. I think this addresses our most common complaints here in this board.

    Officers confront armed persons on a daily basis. The most important mission for officers is the
    preservation of life. Officers should remember to use good officer safety tactics in all situations they
    encounter; however, all tactics and practices used by officers must be in accordance with legal
    principles and department policy. This bulletin will address the actions an officer may take and actions
    an officer should avoid when confronting an armed citizen.

    Legal basis for detention

    An officer may detain an individual temporarily for criminal investigation purposes only when the officer
    has developed reasonable suspicion. Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968). Reasonable suspicion exists
    where the facts known to the officer and the reasonable inferences therefrom would cause an ordinarily
    prudent person to believe that criminal activity has occurred or is about to occur. Perez v. State, 981
    N.E.2d 1242, 1249 (Ind. Ct. App. 2013). However, an officer “must have a particularized and objective
    basis for suspecting the particular person stopped of criminal activity.” United States v. Cortez, 449
    U.S. 411, 417-18 (1981). This basis must focus on particularized suspect behavior and not descriptive
    or environmental factors.

    Absent any other suspicious behavior, the carrying of a firearm alone does NOT create reasonable
    suspicion for detention. See, e.g., United States v. Black, 707 F.3d 531, 540 (4th Cir. 2013) (“Where a
    state permits individuals to openly carry firearms, the exercise of this right, without more, cannot justify
    an investigatory detention.”). Thus, officers stopping an individual for carrying a firearm must be able to
    point to additional suspect behavior that led them to believe criminal activity was afoot. There is NO
    Indiana statutory authority that permits an officer to stop an individual carrying a handgun
    solely for the purpose of verifying the existence of a valid handgun license.

    Officers lacking reasonable suspicion, but still having a need to investigate further, may have a
    consensual encounter to gain additional facts as needed. The encounter must be voluntary, and a
    reasonable person should feel free to leave or stop answering questions at any time. If the person
    refuses to talk or attempts to leave, and the officer has not developed reasonable suspicion, then the
    person must be allowed to leave and/or stop answering questions. Drayton v. U.S., 536 U.S. 194
    (2002).

    Handling firearms

    If during the course of a detention, the officer reasonably believes the handgun should be removed, he
    or she may do so. Handguns being returned to persons should be done in a “safe manner.” The
    practices of field stripping semi-auto pistols and/or confiscating live ammunition are prohibited.

    Private property

    Businesses and property owners may prohibit persons from carrying firearms on their property. When
    an officer encounters an armed citizen carrying a firearm on private property where the owner or
    owner’s agent has restricted such activity, the officer should assist the agent/property owner in
    informing the citizen that refusal to leave the property could constitute criminal trespass. All
    requirements for criminal trespass as outlined by law should be followed for the
    trespass arrest, if necessary.
     

    chezuki

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    Nice for the most part!

    If during the course of a detention, the officer reasonably believes the handgun should be removed, he
    or she may do so.

    What would constitute this? The one time I've informed an officer I was carrying during a traffic stop, he took the gun (well, one of them) because he "believed he should be the only one with a gun" during a traffic stop. (his words). Would that be considered a reasonable belief?
     

    SteveM4A1

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    Definitely on the right track:yesway:. I wish it would specifically state the reasonable suspicion needed for confiscation of firearms, as discussed in Malone v Indiana, Washington v Indiana, and Terry v Ohio (Where a reasonably prudent officer is warranted in the circumstances of a given case in believing that his safety or that of others is endangered, he may make a reasonable search for weapons of the person believed by him to be armed and dangerous regardless of whether he has probable cause to arrest that individual for crime or the absolute certainty that the individual is armed.)
     

    rockhopper46038

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    Thank you, Denny! Is any of this attributable to your leadership program paper of last year? In any case, I'm glad to read it. Frankly, I'm surprised by the point about there being no statute that provides for an officer to question a person solely on the basis of them carrying a firearm. I didn't like it, but I somewhat understood how while the LTCH is the positive defense against further questioning, the IC code stating that carrying a handgun is illegal would allow an officer to stop you and ask to see it. I certain like this better.

    EDIT: it is possible that the leadership paper was Frank's; if so, my mistake!
     

    VERT

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    Nice for the most part!



    What would constitute this? The one time I've informed an officer I was carrying during a traffic stop, he took the gun (well, one of them) because he "believed he should be the only one with a gun" during a traffic stop. (his words). Would that be considered a reasonable belief?

    I do not think that meets the criteria for "reasonable". Now if you were acting strangely......
     

    pudly

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    Thanks for sharing. So this applies to "all employees". Does this mean that call centers will ask on MWAG calls if the carrier is doing anything suspicious/dangerous?
     

    T.Lex

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    Definitely on the right track:yesway:. I wish it would specifically state the reasonable suspicion needed for confiscation of firearms, as discussed in Malone v Indiana, Washington v Indiana, and Terry v Ohio
    I thought of this, too, and there is probably a version of that document that has all that.

    But, consider the audience/context. This was probably intended to be a short, easy to read, clear overview. In my experience, the kind of clarification/elaboration you describe is better suited to a classroom or training environment where there can be a question and answer component.
     

    the1kidd03

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    somewhere
    If during the course of a detention, the officer reasonably believes the handgun should be removed, he
    or she may do so. Handguns being returned to persons should be done in a “safe manner.” The
    practices of field stripping semi-auto pistols and/or confiscating live ammunition are prohibited.

    HA! Wish this had been issued over a decade ago.....
     

    SteveM4A1

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    I thought of this, too, and there is probably a version of that document that has all that.

    But, consider the audience/context. This was probably intended to be a short, easy to read, clear overview. In my experience, the kind of clarification/elaboration you describe is better suited to a classroom or training environment where there can be a question and answer component.

    Yea I can see that. But seeing how they already went into depth on the legal basis for detention, why not the legal basis for seizure. That section is quite scary; it makes no attempts to define any conditions, and basically leaves it up for officers to believe what they want.

    But all in all, definitely glad to see this. I hope more departments follow this initiative.
     

    T.Lex

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    One thing I've told officers about the dangers of handling someone else's firearm is that they have no idea what kind of condition that firearm is in. If they start messing around with it ("coonfingering" as some call it) and there's an AD/ND... do they really want to write that report?
     

    bobzilla

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    Brownswhitanon.
    One thing I've told officers about the dangers of handling someone else's firearm is that they have no idea what kind of condition that firearm is in. If they start messing around with it ("coonfingering" as some call it) and there's an AD/ND... do they really want to write that report?

    That's easy: Suspect was waving the gun around when it discharged. Done.

    Add purple where needed.
     
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