What is your threshold?

[Wabatuckian]

Josh,

What formal training have you had?

H2H combatives, Aikido mixed with several other forms including military combatives. Certified to instruct both empty hand and weapons, not including firearms.

Certified OC training, law enforcement.

Handgun training, local law enforcement.

Handgun training, college, law enforcement. This involved several fun things including having to score after a pepper spray hit. Weapon retention, shooting prone, on my back, side, strong hand, weak hand, etc.

Real life incidents that I don't want to discuss.

Granted a lot of this training is a bit old (~10 years, give or take.) However, I still practice the majority of it.

I am not a police officer nor have I been. After the courses I decided I wanted a different path in life.

Josh <><

 

[Shay]

Have you ever paid for firearms training outside of law enforcement?

 

[Sailor]

Shay, do you still get training?

My guess is yes.

Regardless of your level of training and expertise, we can ALL benefit from continuous training. Just being around others who are willing to learn and grow forces you to adapt and look at your self from another angle.

Still you will be better than 99% of the criminals out there, but everyone has room for improvement.

 

[esrice]

Shay, do you still get training?

I think I remember seeing Shay's name on the list of people who took the first basic class in New Castle with Matt (pierce195). I laughed at first. But the more I thought about it the more it made sense.

 

[Shay]

Shay, do you still get training?

My guess is yes.

Regardless of your level of training and expertise, we can ALL benefit from continuous training. Just being around others who are willing to learn and grow forces you to adapt and look at your self from another angle.

Yes, I train with as many instructors as possible. Always a student; sometimes a teacher.

Tiger Woods still has a golf coach...

 

[rhino]

My opinion on the "training" issue is not shared by many people.

I think that professional instruction (whether you pay for it or not) greatly accelerates the learning curve for anyone. I think that most people need it to master certain skills in a reasonable amount of time (like their lifetime).

On the other hand, I believe there exist (and I have met a few) people who are self-taught that I think would do as well as any training junkie in a personal defense situation. These people are rare, but then so are people who can teach themself to play the violin well. Some people have a talent for watching others and mimicking their movements that is beyond the vast majority of the population. It's just the way it is.

This does not in any way demean the value of professional instruction in my eyes. I think that even the competent self-taught individual could benefit greatly from it, given the right instructor(s) and curriculum. I just don't agree that 100% of the population "needs training" in the sense it is discussed here and in similar venues.

I also believe that most people who think they are one of those rare people who can learn this stuff on their own are wrong.

 

[Fenway]

This is a very interesting discussion. 50% of my living right now comes from training middle school kids through adults to "master" a musical instrument. I went to IU to learn from the very best in the world and now I pass that knowledge down to others.

All of my students learn things and are better off than those who don't have instruction. My best chance for a "successful student" is if I get them in the 5th grade before they pick up bad habits that take months or years to unlearn. My "worst students" are the adults who have been hacking away for years trying to reinvent the wheel while developing horrible habits. By the time they get to me the bad habits are nearly impossible to break because the muscle memory has become so strong.

Talent has a lot to do with it. I can see a student for the first time in the 5th grade and know if he has "got it" Things come naturally and he or she could probably go very far with out my guidance. I also see people with 0 natural talent and I can mold them into someone who can be very capable. If they didn't have my instruction many of them will never make it. Most likely they would become very frustrated and quit.

So I can take a talented student and turn them into a monster player or someone with zero natural talent and turn them into a very decent player capable of doing many of the things the talented player can do.

What does this have to do with firearms. I think it's exactly the same IMHO. If you have the basic firearms safety rules under control I'm sure you can do a lot of things and be safe. If you really want to improve you learn from the very best and you skip the going around in circles / reinventing the wheel part and fly straight to your target.

 

[SilentWarrior1]

I tend to look at training as Martial Art fighting styles. No one style is absolute, and with some work, you can mix and interlace them.

Some styles won't work for some people. A short, stocky person wouldn't be benefitting from a style that was aerial based and longer ranged attacks... as a taller, lankier wouldn't necessarily benefit from a ground based, grappling and close in attacks.

So, I try to absorb as much information whether by instruction, or by self-absorption (i.e. reading, video, etc.) and weed out the bad information so good information can be used for further study.

Bottom line... Use what works for you.

 

[Wabatuckian]

Have you ever paid for firearms training outside of law enforcement?

No, I have not.

Josh <><

 

[SavageEagle]

Wow, the more I follow this thread the more I realize just how much I NEED the training. As Josh said practice is CRUCIAL with your carry weapon, but unless you are thrust into a high stress situation you never know how you will react unless you have training which begets instincts. I have taken some extensive Tae Kwon Do training, and while I never reached BB, I was very close, and with that knowledge and training, I became more prepared to defend myself. Because of that training I learned disipline in high stress situations. Although I stopped practicing my forms and one-steps, I still retained alot of instincts I learned there.

Anyway, like I said before, I know I need training, and alot of it. That's why I signed up on here. I figure this is a great place to start. I also look forward to reading about your experiances and maybe meeting up on the range one day. My fiance really needs the training too so one day we'll both hopefully get to meet some real great instructors. I really appreciate the great discussions and for putting me in my place when i fell outta line! LOL

 

[Pami]

Only one other thing to add....

You need to get your fiancee registered and reading here as well.

We'll give her a big group hug! Only TomN bites...the rest of us are mostly safe.

 

[SavageEagle]

Only one other thing to add....

You need to get your fiancee registered and reading here as well.

We'll give her a big group hug! Only TomN bites...the rest of us are mostly safe.

Oh trust me I'm trying! LOL she's more of a myspace gal when she is online! LOL She's in dire need of feminine shooting support! Her email is sweet_savage_love@yahoo.com if you want to give her some encouragement!

 

[Dave]

Her email is sweet_savage_love@yahoo.com if you want to give her some encouragement!

 

[Yamaha]

Sounds like you might be able to face off against a former member here. He goes by "Mr. Glock" on youtube and he competes in "1 and done" competitions.

no idea, may have to browse that one.....better yet, pm me the story details....

I'm pretty sure pops is 40 feet, not yards.

Fort Wayne can't be worse than Gary can it?

idk, is it 40ft? I've been once whatever distance it was, I was pleased with myself

 

[obijohn]

At any rate, why do we need training now, when we didn't back before say, the 1970s?

why do you think that we didn't need training in the 70's? defensive training is more available to the civilian now. in the 70's, not so much.

 

[TomN]

Only TomN bites...the rest of us are mostly safe.

This is not entirely true! I mostly just nibble.

I only bite on request.

 

[munky_3434]

over in kuwait about 4 years ago(8 months before iraq pt 2) i was presented with a situation while on a mobile patrol.6 in the morning , 1 hour left on shift. we had 3 men in an SUV pull alongside a fenceline(guarding kuwait city intl airport military side). our job was basically to chase them off. as soon as we pulled up they feaked out and jumped in their vehicle and bolted.

we are then driving parallel(my partner was driving) on two roads about 20 meters apart, calling in the situation and driving about 65 mph. front passenger of their vehicle was trying to hide in the corner of the door by his seat. luckily for us the usaf provides superior vehicles(ford ranger) with a large storage capacity for two guys, ammo, flak jackets kevlar helmets, a m-16 and a m-249(mine)so all the "unnessecary gear goes in the bed. so i have to climb out a moving vehicle to get the 249 and cover them.

the passenger starts to get squirrely and appears to be presenting something. (rules of engagement suck)while trying to radio this in we hear BOOM, nothing hits the truck and no muzzel flash, i drew my weapon, jacked a round and placed it on fire.
by all rights i could have fired, but someting was'nt right. a second BOOM, a cloud of smoke and a vehicle out of comission. their suv backfired

my personal belief that it is largely instinct, i really can't answer exactly when

sorry for the crappy puncuation, spelling , and no capital letters

 

[Annie Oakley]

I've had both private and LEO training. It is important to continue training even if it is just done with another shooter that has more experience than you. Just a couple of weeks ago my brother and I shot and he was able to correct some bad habits I had fallen into from shooting alone. It made me better and I am still staying very aware of what I am doing all the time. Practice gives you the ability to do what you need to do without having to really think about it. That, IMHO, is where we need to get so that when TSHTF you react based on your training and practice.

This whole thread has been very interesting to read and I especially like it that people express their differing opinons respectfully and no one gets bent because of a different viewpoint.

 

[Wabatuckian]

why do you think that we didn't need training in the 70's? defensive training is more available to the civilian now. in the 70's, not so much.

I'm a student of the Old West.

By way of example, I cannot find any 19th Century training schools. Yet, people did just fine in confrontations.

The most famous of these is probably the "shootout at the OK Corral." Didn't really take place at the corral but in an empty lot, but that's for another discussion. Every one of Clanton gang were killed, but the Earps and Doc Holliday were not. In fact, Wyatt was untouched, and Doc only had a scratch down his back - he was grazed.

It just all had to do with cool heads prevailing under stress, from what I can tell. As well, Morgan and Virgil kept fighting even after they went down with wounds. Nobody had to tell them to do this.

Probably the more pertinent one to today was between Luke Short and Jim Courtright. There's some debate as to whether this was a duel or self-defense but sticking strictly to the facts and not to mitigating circumstances, it went down like this: Short was threatened earlier by Courtright. Short's response was to cut down a double action Colt revolver and have made in his suit pants a "gun pocket," whereby the pocket was simply lined with leather - an early pocket holster.

When the two later met, Courtright (being the town marshall, though corrupt) told Luke not to pull a gun on him. (It's usually agreed that Courtright said this simply to establish that he was in fear of his life.) Luke responded that he was unarmed. They both went for their guns, and Luke got his out and going first. His shots hit Courtright in the right thumb, in the chest, and in the shoulder, killing him. Three or four shots were fired from a six (five loaded) shot, double action snubby revolver, landing three hits on an assailant. Short was cleared in court.

These, and other similar, incidents abound if you look. Cover and concealment were known about, but things happened so fast that they generally were unable to be used.

I'm not saying that training is not nice to have, but I just don't think that the blanked statement that it's an absolute requirement for everyone is accurate. If the complete novice buys a snub nosed revolver and 350 rounds of ammunition per week and actually practices drawing and shooting an 8x10" target at 3 to 15 feet everyday, he will be well prepared for 99.9% of any scenario that may befall him.

However, if you're going to get training, my take on it is this: Check out the credentials of several instructors - and know what to look for - or spend the money to go to a school such as LFI or Front Sight that's been in the business a while. Bad training is worse than no training, in my opinion. That's not to dump on anyone, anywhere, so please don't read it as such.

Only read it that bad instruction < no instruction < lots of practice < good instruction.

And that brings up another topic altogether - what is TRAINING? I went to a public, outside range the other day simply because it's adjacent to a gunstore I was doing business with. I had my 1911 on me, and there was a Vietnam Veteran trying to learn to shoot his compact Kimber. I had to diagnose a problem with my gun anyway, so I paid the $10 range fee, bought a box of ammo, and went out with him. He had indicated that he qualified with a 1911 in the military, but it was on a 50 yard range, one handed target shooting style. I showed him a few modern tricks, then went to the 7 yard line while he was empty and not shooting (and would not do so) and emptied my 1911 into my target, reloaded, did it again, then once more. (I was definitely shooting a bit to the right - I'd had to take the sights off and hadn't got them back on just where they were - and the slide stop and slide stop plunger pin had something wrong wrong with them and I ordered Wilson replacements after I was done shooting.) At any rate, after my little "display" which I had only done fast at a public range because fast was the only time the problem occurred, he had some questions. I showed him two things: lean toward the gun - don't let it scare you - and when asked about the teacup hold, I showed him why it was a bad idea. His shooting immediately improved.

But, I don't consider that training. I didn't take money for it, he didn't offer, and it was just one shooter who had been taught more modern methods (me) helping out someone who was somewhat of a handgun novice and making poor hits due to that fact.

Do you consider that as me training him? I sure don't, as I said.

What's training? No, I don't advocate handing someone a snub and 100 rounds without reviewing basic safety and sight alignment rules, but heck, I learned those from both my dad (who grew up hunting, but never hunted as I grew up) and Daisy safety pamphlets. Then I practiced, practiced, practiced. I ended up hunting and was able to hit anything I shot at.

Handguns were a bit different, but the basic ideas transferred. I believe, therefore, that if you've grown up shooting (or, especially, hunting, since it makes use of concealment) or if you were in the military and handled a rifle, you've already set good groundwork for handgun handling. If you have problems, hey, go onto the internet and read up on the latest and greatest handgun control (meaning, teacup vs modern grips) techniques and apply them. - the lessons learned by yourself stick with you the longest -

For example, one thing I'm doing right now is blinking when a round is fired. I know I'm doing this, but it's not causing me to flinch or shoot any worse than I was before. It started happening when an underpowered round didn't seal all the way and blew some debris back in my face (yes, I was wearing safety glasses.) However, it's happened since. It doesn't affect my shooting, my groups haven't gotten bigger, but it bugs me because I shouldn't be doing it. I know of no training that can help me here - just more practice.

Another bad habit is that I still sometimes run my gun dry. I was very proud of myself when I was able to do tac reloads with only one or two left in the spent magazine. (I was trained to reload at slidelock from behind cover as this was the thinking at the time.) It's a skill I'm still developing, but it's going well.

In other words, if you know your bad habits, you can likely change them yourself, IF you're well grounded in the basics and do some reading.

I'm still trying to figure out how to top off the mag of an SKS, but I think I've got that down too. Just pull the bolt back and hold it with your thumb while reloading with the other hand. This requires carrying a few loose rounds as opposed to stripper clips, and unlike a shotgun you have to take the rifle from your shoulder, but it works.

I've digressed big time here and I apologize. Ignore the last parts I guess

Josh <><

 

[Lars]

For a little bit of forum necromancy...

I'd like to say I've re-evaluated my thoughts from nearly a year ago. I don't claim to have all the answers but I can tell you that this thread alone changed how I look at firearms 100%

This is what prompted me to stop looking at buying guns I don't need, and gun equipment that's pointless and start looking for quality training.

I've adopted some ideas from someone I respect.

1) I'm not going to do anything that will get me shot, if I'm not already being shot at.

2) I will not be bound without a fight.

3) I will not be put into the back of a van, trunk of a car, or other confined space to be taken elsewhere without a fight.

4) You will not do the above to any of my family or close friends.

I'm sure my thoughts on this question will evolve as I continue my training. This thread got discussed tonight in Bloomington, and I threatened to bring it back to the forefront...... Here you guys go.