What is your threshold?

[jeremy]

It all depends on the ROE.

 

[Dogman]

I'd like to say I've re-evaluated my thoughts from nearly a year ago. I don't claim to have all the answers but I can tell you that this thread alone changed how I look at firearms 100%

This is what prompted me to stop looking at buying guns I don't need, and gun equipment that's pointless and start looking for quality training.

I've adopted some ideas from someone I respect.

1) I'm not going to do anything that will get me shot, if I'm not already being shot at.

2) I will not be bound without a fight.

3) I will not be put into the back of a van, trunk of a car, or other confined space to be taken elsewhere without a fight.

4) You will not do the above to any of my family or close friends.

I'm sure my thoughts on this question will evolve as I continue my training. This thread got discussed tonight in Bloomington, and I threatened to bring it back to the forefront...... Here you guys go.

Reps, if you let them (BG) tie you up, take you somewhere figure your already dead. One of the first things I was taught was never give up your weapon because they will kill you anyway.

 

[Lars]

This thread is from the days when INGO had about 350 members. We got 7 pages out of it then. The question is easily as valid today as it was then, but now we have nearly ten times the number of members here on the site.

I'll quote the question asked by Shay on Page one so anyone just getting here for the first time know what was asked.

I spend a lot of my time teaching Force on Force. I find that students think they know when they should shoot someone up until the point where I put them in a situation and then they either shoot someone that doesn't need to be shot or don't shoot someone that does.

Can you share with me the point at which you think you would shoot someone?

I know for sure my thoughts on the subject have changed a LOT since May, 2008.

 

[NateIU10]

I don't know how I ever missed this thread.

Defending your castle is noble. Setting your own castle on fire is counterproductive.

Best. Quote. EVER!

GetA2J- But what if you encounter a terrorist and his buddies? What if you blow him away and he's the only one who can tell you OR the FBI where that Nuke he planted is? there are scenarios where shoot to wound is called for. Think a little more openly about this....

Now, that being said, it's a great question Shay. As with everything, each situation will be unique, so I don't think there's a "I'll do this" every time answer. If I'm in a situation where me, my loved ones or a third party are in grave danger (ie bodily injury, threat of death) then I would act accordingly. I will draw to shoot. No warning shots. No flash bangs or smoke grenades. Do what is necessary to preserve life, and protect myself and those around me.

 

[mettle]

If my family or I are in immediate danger of grave harm or death. The attacker will die. I will then call a lawyer, before I call the police.

 

[oldfb]

I had a really long post that was smart and informative. My palm centro ate it. Google NEVER TALK TO THE POLICE. See if what the defense lawyer and LEO DETECTIVE have to say. Stop posting quasi pre-meditated murders. Admit we all will scream like girls or stand there doing our best statue impersonation, waiting for the"UP" command or pee ourselves. Then spend the rest of our lives however short they are, bitching to ourselves that if we had taken 5 less or more minutes getting out of bed we wouldn't even be in this situation. Truth is the only absolute reasons that I know are: Shoot to live! Shoot to save a life.
Everything else is a wild card...

 

[357Fan]

Thats one hell of a thought oldfb. Lots of us not exercising our fifth amendment rights.

 

[Chefcook]

I am not a LEO. More than likely if the situation has escalated to the point that I have had to brandish my weapon. (Assuming this is a non hostage situation.) I am going to engage my target at my first opportunity. In a hostage situation it would depend greatly on the circumstances not only as to rather I would or wouldn't fire but also as to when I would even draw my weapon. I would want to seem to pose no threat till I was able to take quick and decisive action.

 

[oldfb]

Well hopefully with the be alert avoid the dangers and respond with smooth graceful double taps mental mindsets we all share here we will rule the fight. Ahem... Ok enough dreaming. Our fight or flight instinct will respond with the muscle memory we practiced, odds are we will never have the luxury of thinking when to shoot. Things tend to go slow right til they go south fast and if we take the time to do anything creative besides an emergency egress or defensive fight for our life. We are screwed! That is what fear for your life is. If you have time to think and plan you probably wouldn't be needing 2 pounds of steel, belching flames & lead. YMMV

 

[oldfb]

Btw I mentioned never talk to the police because of that video making sense. Not hatin the man! Get your lawyer to do the talking it is his job, let LEO's do their job with your respect and thanks. There will be plenty of time for giving more than your surrender. As for callin 911 after lawyer- pray they don't roll up while you do. Maybe Johnny C can defend u in the afterlife. Better give 911 your description and briefest statement stay on the line, safe your weapon and surrender. Even those cops I see people badmouth can usually spot a nimrod from a mile away. Most every LEO encounter turns out ok- if you were lawfully handling your business. Then went out of your way to show them the courtesy and respect they deserve for shovelling crap all day. Bad days and bad cops happen but majority are just like us. "Human"

 

[MadBomber]

I hope to God never to be put in that position but, I've been taught to never point a weapon at anything I'm not about to shoot. If it's my lose family or shoot the bad guy, I shoot. Granted, I'm sure that as soon as the smoke clears I'll blubber like a baby and have the shakes for hours. At least I hope I do; I'd like to think a shooting would affect me deeply enough to be disturbed by it in the aftermath.
I just plan to enjoy a very long aftermath.

 

[H.T.]

Everything in a firefight is muscle memory you'll react as you've been trained.After the first couple times experience starts to be added to that training.
My first firefight I was a 20 yr. old scared kid. Who new Jack & Sh*T. The only things I did know were that I was in Iraq and that I was sitting in the Drivers hatch of a M106A2 Mortar gun track. with 1/5 CAV, 1CD(1st. Cavalry Div) stenciled on the front. Tunnel vision,things slowed all these things happend when that first round came in. It wasn't a little AK round it was a 88mm recoiless rifle. It hit the track in front of mine. Then it was just madness. I emptied 3 mags in the first few minutes. cleared a jam and hit nothing as far as I new. Everything was all muscle memory and Yes I shook for hrs. afterwards. In fact I thought I was going to shake my 13ton gun track apart. later when I stopped shaking I recalled my training and decided to place my selector on semi. My next firefights were just as chaotic but I was a bit more ready. I stress the word a BIT.
I was not a new rookie cop or a civie who went to the rang once a week. I had almost a yr of intence Infantry training. to Include CQB and MOUT along with the standard Infantry training and Armored Cavalry tatctics.
There are Vets out there who've been in firefights and there are cops who have been in one,two or more. Everyones experiences are diffrent. One thing is for sure Good training is important and continueing education is important. So Train,Practice Learn and train some more..Then repeat.Sorry Shay, I didn't really answer the question you asked at the beginning of this thread. First off even if you went out and made up a class of only those people with actual combat experience be they military or law enforcement. You would find that the point they use deadly force would vary from person to person. Why....Two things..Training and experience.Miltary training is diffent from law enforcement training. And the military training varys from branch to branch. and MOS to MOS. For instance in an earlier post a member who served in the Airforce stated that he was in Kuwait and at a oint while patroling had to jack a round in the Chamber of his weapon...In the Army Infantry when as soon as we had boots on the ground in country we locked an loaded and were always locked and loaded. Diffrent training and mind sets.


Now when you try to teach Force on Force to new rookie cops or your average every day citizen. Things get more intresting for lack of a better term. First off tv unfortunatly influances a lot of people. Secondly most people don't think about there reactions to a life threatening situation that much if at all.

If I were you I would find people who have been in real life Force on Force situations.Be they Law Enforcement or Miliatry. Let them sit in on the class and kinda help you with the Civies. I'm sure that there experiences will help you to give those people taking the class a better idea about when to use deadly force.


As for myself. Being a fireman in Indy I've had to fight people from the whacked out meth head. to people who in medical terms..Were a few sandwiches short of a picnic.
I've been called to scenes for an injured person only to find that the husband had beat his wife and IMPD wasn't sent cause it was an injured person call. So we have to control the sitiation until they arrive. In these situations I've never been alone it was me and 4 to 5 other firemen. A time or two I was the first one to get off the rig and get to the person.Just when they decided to charge both times I used eaither the big metal clipboard or my radio to persuade them to stop trying to cause me bodily harm.Most times myself or another Firemen are able to talk to the person and control the situation verbaly.

Every situation is diffrent. I do know this if I draw my weapon the person or persons who've given me cause to do so,will die.

 

[Goodcat]

The best I can assume is that I will be prepared to shoot if the time comes. I think first off, I will look at the situation in the beginning and decide if there is an 'out'. If a robber is in my home for instance, I would detain him at gun point. If he wields a weapon or gives me any reason what-so-ever to second guess my kindness, I will open fire no questions asked. "He reached for what I thought was a gun"

The situation I always wonder about is, what if some idiot trys to pick a fight with me in a public place. I try to avoid it, but can't. Do I hope I can fight him and take him down quick or run away, or do I draw and completely escalate the situation? Yes I believe in the whole, I'll assume he's trying to take my life and react accordingly, but I wonder how a jury would feel about that....

What if I draw, then I'm forced to fire because he runs at me. Does the jury expect when he runs at me for me to put my gun away because he doesn't have a weapon? ugh

 

[NEWMAN]

When my Life or my families lifes are are in grave danger.

 

[dan lenson]

ah-maze-zazz-zing

At once I'm grateful and amazed. Really, I may just be mistaken.

Last summer in Onslow County, NC, in order to apply for a ccw permit, I was required to attend a ccw class, and submit an application that required approval from my physician to vouch for my mental integrity.

Here in Indiana, it's a buck fifty. How nifty! Pay the fees. Wait. Get the ccw in the mailbox.

Didn't care to attend the class in NC, but it did prove informative as far as justification in use of deadly force.

Laying down a buck fifty doesn't ensure that the applicant understands the rules of engagement.

Kinda important, don't you think?

 

[Lars]

I think firearm owners should want to seek out Realistic, Relevant, and Recent training. I don't think the law should require them to do so however.

At once I'm grateful and amazed. Really, I may just be mistaken.

Last summer in Onslow County, NC, in order to apply for a ccw permit, I was required to attend a ccw class, and submit an application that required approval from my physician to vouch for my mental integrity.

Here in Indiana, it's a buck fifty. How nifty! Pay the fees. Wait. Get the ccw in the mailbox.

Didn't care to attend the class in NC, but it did prove informative as far as justification in use of deadly force.

Laying down a buck fifty doesn't ensure that the applicant understands the rules of engagement.

Kinda important, don't you think?

 

[Pami]

I think firearm owners should want to seek out Realistic, Relevant, and Recent training. I don't think the law should require them to do so however.

+1 , but there are several threads on this very specific topic, so let's watch on how far down that path this thread goes.

When my Life or my families lifes are are in grave danger.

What defines "grave danger?" At what point do you decide that it's a now-or-never moment? Do you know without a doubt that in the heat of the moment you could respond with in-kind force?

 

[NEWMAN]

Do you know without a doubt that in the heat of the moment you could respond with in-kind force?

Yes, its been tested.

To be honest things don't line up on a chart to tell you what to do. You personally have to decide, and not one thing written here will work for the next. No situation is the same. To generalize it in words of you need this, this, and this in order for you to do this then your time is up and you have done to much thinking and its a mute point your allready dead.
Just my experience and thoughts.

P.S. good topic.

 

[mercop]

When I cam on the job an old timer told me that if you have time to think about it then you don't have to shoot. And my own personal experience has led me to believe that is true. For others involved in shootings that I have had conversations with they also see it that way.

I think one problem is that we fall into the habit of seeing bad guys and threats looking a different way then they appear in real life. Real bad guys don't wear black sweats and a watch cap like in ADT commercials. Everyone in the world is a threat until proven otherwise or until you are away from them.

In the past I have compared use of force incidents to car accidents, not only because of the spontaneity and violence, but because you don't wake up in the morning and have a gut feeling that your life is going to be very different at the end of the day.- George

 

[mid_man2000]

Our concealed carry instructor suggested 4 questions to aks yourself (ifg you've got time!!

1. Am I in imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury?
2. Would another person of normal mind agree with me?
3. Did I instigate this situation?
4. Am I using excessive force?

Answering 'No' to 1 or 2 or 'Yes" to 3 or 4 means don't shoot.