USPSA clubs are revolting!

[Trapper Jim]

As other have stated they are different but similar.
USPSA is a NON-profit org.
IDPA is a for profit company.
USPSA doesn't require membership(ever) to shoot level one matches. I know shooters that have been shooting over 20 years that never joined. BUT USPSA still gets money from the clubs for every match that shooter shoots. Clubs pay activity fees for every shooter at a match. Membership get a shooter access to level 2 matches and the classification system so you can track your improvements and ranking with other shooters, like your buddies.

IDPA I've only shot a few times and I'm far from a expert but I have built quite a few Revolvers for IDPA shooters and know the rules are strange(trying to be nice here).
IDPA requires you join the org. after a few matches but clubs have found work arounds as others have stated.
IDPA doesn't get any fees from the matches so if shooters don't join they(IDPA) don't make any money which is not good for a for profit company.
Just my opinion here but I don't really understand the thought process of clubs that hold IDPA matches and make profit from said matches that helps support that club but don't support the national organization by letting people shoot without joining the national org. as per the orgs rules.
Just my and again I'm not by any means a expert on IDPA.

We were doing friendly action shooting matches and sanctioned NRA matches long before USPSA and IDPA. If the NRA really cared about the shooters that fund them, then hypothetically there would be no USPSA or IDPA but Action Pistol is as far as it got. Having said that, the hard work of both USPSA and IDPA brings us a venue to play in and if one does not like the rules or how the Association is run, playing or participating in the Admin is optional.

I can find things about every shooting sport that I think should be different but that doesn't keep me from participating in everything I can. With all their supposed faults I would hate to loose Sanctioned USPSA and IDPA matches. I also understand that there is room for smaller local type matches. They are fun and are easy to get started in without spending a fortune in equipment, travel and fees. I wish I was younger and could go National with my StreetWise Defense Matches, but I do not have the time nor the money it would take.

While the round count and equipment race has evolved to the race playground in USPSA and IDPA, that does not make it bad, just expensive to shoot. Neither Association is PRACTICAL or DEFENSIVE shooting in my opinion.

Divide and Conquer is being used here to hurt the entire USPSA program. Kinda like today's civil unrest. See a pattern Social Media? USPSA may not be as pure as driven snow but the whining crybabies will ruin it for all if we let them.

Meanwhile, while the kids fight over the sandbox, I'll be out enjoying a day at the range.

See you on the range,

Trapper

 

[cedartop]

I wish IDPA would drop the cover garment and tactical BS and just make it a time-plus game. Most of the detractions from playing the game are the rules surrounding self-defense play.

There are those that say that, but I disagree. We don't need another USPSA. There is a reason why IDPA was founded. Unfortunately it seems to get further away from that all the time. I think dropping the cover garment would completely finish its supposed purpose. And yes I get that most people game the cover garment thing as well.

 

[Grelber]

The IDPA rules are really not that 'strange' when considering they are based on self-defense tactics. I.e. using 'cover' or 'slicing the pie' when engaging targets around a corner, vs jumping out in the open and shooting in any order. Just different. Both can be fun.

I enjoy both sports but in order to make IDPA rules more strange I think you'd have to put a lot of work into it.

You can't use the expensive and fun Texas stars your club already bought because they are not real world self defensie, but you can have stages where you shoot zombies and aliens with clay pigeons for brains.

You must wear the fishing vest to conceal your pistol but with your unconcealed rifle, no worries.

In order to conserve ammo to be self defensie you must waste ammo so you are not the one person at the match doing standing reloads.

To find out if something about your gun is legal you are supposed to contact your area rules person, but what that person tells you doesn't matter when you get to a major.

Ad infinitum.

To be clear I enjoy IDPA shooting, it is burning powder with friends, but I think that you just need to accept that the rules are a mess and that most matches will feature debates & confusion over procedurals.

 

[Grelber]

There is a reason why IDPA was founded.

$$$$$$$$

I have no problem with that, just sayin.

 

[longbeard]

There are those that say that, but I disagree. We don't need another USPSA. There is a reason why IDPA was founded. Unfortunately it seems to get further away from that all the time. I think dropping the cover garment would completely finish its supposed purpose. And yes I get that most people game the cover garment thing as well.

I respect where you are coming from, but the carry gun matches are much more suited to testing those type of skills.

Cover garment is literally a $100 tactic vest people wear to solve the issue of flimsy shirts interfering with the manipulation. It's a long way away from having any real world purpose. Then there are the engagement rules which you spend 15 minutes negotiating before shooting the stage.

In it's raw form it's fun. Shoot alphas. Just do that.

 

[Cameramonkey]

I respect where you are coming from, but the carry gun matches are much more suited to testing those type of skills.

Cover garment is literally a $100 tactic vest people wear to solve the issue of flimsy shirts interfering with the manipulation. It's a long way away from having any real world purpose. Then there are the engagement rules which you spend 15 minutes negotiating before shooting the stage.

In it's raw form it's fun. Shoot alphas. Just do that.

I have not done a formal survey/study but my gut says all those calling for no cover garment open carry.

 

[longbeard]

I have not done a formal survey/study but my gut says all those calling for no cover garment open carry.

Not this guy.

I'm not opposed to a concealed carry game, but it's long way from that now. I don't wear a stiff fishing vest anywhere but an idpa match. Hardly a representative of concealed carry imo.

It is what you make it I suppose. Don't have to wear a vest. I just find it silly.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Not this guy.

I'm not opposed to a concealed carry game, but it's long way from that now. I don't wear a stiff fishing vest anywhere but an idpa match. Hardly a representative of concealed carry imo.

It is what you make it I suppose. Don't have to wear a vest. I just find it silly.

You dont have to wear a vest. I compete sometimes in what I EDC. Usually a short sleeve casual shirt untucked. And since I carry IWB I can stick my arms out and still be within the rules because the gun cant be seen.

 

[longbeard]

You dont have to wear a vest. I compete sometimes in what I EDC. Usually a short sleeve casual shirt untucked. And since I carry IWB I can stick my arms out and still be within the rules because the gun cant be seen.

Nope. You don't have to wear a vest in idpa. You don't have to buy race gear in USPSA.

Possibly the best part of shooting sports is you can get from it whatever you want.

I shoot some idpa. Each year it gets closer to being a complete game. It's just my opinion it would be more fun as just an accuracy focused game without all the subjective rules and fishing vests.

Case in point. Fault lines. First it was they went to infinity, then not. Then you couldn't game the fault lines to shoot two positions. Noone knew the current rule last club match. Frustrating. Probably time for full fault lines.

Some stages don't require the vest. Wtf.

Holster rules are now wide open. I shoot a doh holster. A guy at the state match shot a full boss hangar. It's now legal. I'll be switching. I have several. I guess I'll just wear a longer garment it it's too long.

Point being. It's hardly a test of concealed carry skills. It's a game that keeps having to evolve to solve the competition side of it..

 

[Trapper Jim]

IDPA is NOT defensive practice. It’s a game. Played with equipment many IDPA shooters do not carry on the street. Vest is a silly idea in a game.

If the shooter wants to improve his street defensive skill set, then he should practice presenting from a garment on his own. To require a cover garment on race equipment that has no place in street carry is an oxymoron.

Same way with requiring target acquisition and reloads and division capacity. One does not fight that way on the street for very long.

The things IDPA has me doing to get a decent score troubles me sometimes. Their stage round count has gotten unreasonable as well.

However, any trigger time is fun with my buddies and I am aware of the differences between gaming and fighting.


See you on the range

Trapper

 

[racegunz]

We were doing friendly action shooting matches and sanctioned NRA matches long before USPSA and IDPA. If the NRA really cared about the shooters that fund them, then hypothetically there would be no USPSA or IDPA but Action Pistol is as far as it got. Having said that, the hard work of both USPSA and IDPA brings us a venue to play in and if one does not like the rules or how the Association is run, playing or participating in the Admin is optional.

I can find things about every shooting sport that I think should be different but that doesn't keep me from participating in everything I can. With all their supposed faults I would hate to loose Sanctioned USPSA and IDPA matches. I also understand that there is room for smaller local type matches. They are fun and are easy to get started in without spending a fortune in equipment, travel and fees. I wish I was younger and could go National with my StreetWise Defense Matches, but I do not have the time nor the money it would take.

While the round count and equipment race has evolved to the race playground in USPSA and IDPA, that does not make it bad, just expensive to shoot. Neither Association is PRACTICAL or DEFENSIVE shooting in my opinion.

Divide and Conquer is being used here to hurt the entire USPSA program. Kinda like today's civil unrest. See a pattern Social Media? USPSA may not be as pure as driven snow but the whining crybabies will ruin it for all if we let them.

Meanwhile, while the kids fight over the sandbox, I'll be out enjoying a day at the range.

See you on the range,

Trapper

View attachment 322655

Anyone who complains about corruption is a cry baby now? Got it. Elections aren’t corrupt either and all law enforcement and politicians are perfect just quit whining and complaining cause you will ruin it for everyone. Yep, thx for the philosophy lesson.

 

[Trapper Jim]

Anyone who complains about corruption is a cry baby now? Got it. Elections aren’t corrupt either and all law enforcement and politicians are perfect just quit whining and complaining cause you will ruin it for everyone. Yep, thx for the philosophy lesson.

Sounds like you need one.

One question. What have you done or offered to do to help rather than hurt the admin of your association?

 

[racegunz]

Sounds like you need one.

One question. What have you done or offered to do to help rather than hurt the admin of your association?

I am sure whatever help I’ve done would pale in comparison to the keyboard warriors on ingo. See you on the range.

 

[Diesel24v]

When this happens to a multi-time champion there is a problem. Employee and BOD corruption was rampant and Ben called them out. Others that have spoken out have been given the same treatment.

View attachment 322424

Did you see all of the things that happened leading up to this? Not saying its right but there was mud thrown from both sides. The bandwagon mentality is very strong in USPSA. Most would rather see it burn to the ground and disappear than to work on solutions to the problem. Yes ben called them out. He also was able to get Hopkins voted into the board which kind of gave him a voice on the board. But then Hopkins changed jobs and moved out of the area and failed to mention that to the board. Once they found out he got booted as it goes against the bylaws because he has to live in the area he represents.

The other sad thing is there are some people trying to run for the board to solve the issues but if they are quiet on social media and don't agree 100% with the bandwagon group, they are looked at as the same as the BOD we have. Look at the percentage of USPSA members that actually vote. Its a very small percentage. How can things change if the same people or kind of people are being voted in.

I had quit following along until recently and was like WTF happened now when all of this came out. One thing to pay attention to is the fact that the Bandwagon group has dug up peoples personal lives and is throwing that in their face when they know nothing of the actual situation. It is pretty sad really.

As a USPSA match Director, we will be renewing our affiliation and not jumping on the bandwagon. We have to be the change we want to see and I don't think unaffiliating is going to help the financial situation any.

 

[shootersix]

As a USPSA match Director, we will be renewing our affiliation and not jumping on the bandwagon. We have to be the change we want to see and I don't think unaffiliating is going to help the financial situation any.

So here’s what I’m seeing now with USPSA

It’s a non profit organization, and as such there should be total clarity with the board, and there isn’t!

They booted someone for sharing an email! As the secretary of our gun club, I expect any email to be read by any member! In fact I read the minutes of the last meeting at our club meeting! For clarity!

Our gun club is non profit, all of our board meetings are open to our members! Even our special meetings are! We had a guy very vocal and critical of the leadership, he asked to attend one of our special meetings, after the meeting he thanked us and apologized for his actions and said he understands a lot more of what goes on!

They (USPSA) tried to raise the rates overnight without any advice notice! Not by a trivial amount either! Over 60 percent! And before anybody says “they haven’t raised the rates in 20 years, and everything is more expensive now” yes I am paying more for primers and powder and bullets, but I’m getting something!…not just my name and match information on a website (and a magazine I don’t read!) fyi our club raised its rates by 10% While we were building a new building

They say we’re losing money so we have to raise membership rates, so we should be asking “have you been losing money for 20 years and you just now decided to raise membership prices? Or did the cost of operating go up 60 percent overnight?” Either way…that’s a leadership problem (but don’t question them on it!!! your membership might be revoked cause you’re a troublemaker!) didn’t wssc lose 15000 dollars in 2022?


As for being the change…I doubt the current board would let things change, and I doubt that there will be any changes to the board!, the “good ole boys” will continue to be elected by the “good ole boys”

 

[Cameramonkey]

They say we’re losing money so we have to raise membership rates, so we should be asking “have you been losing money for 20 years and you just now decided to raise membership prices? Or did the cost of operating go up 60 percent overnight?” Either way…that’s a leadership problem (but don’t question them on it!!! your membership might be revoked cause you’re a troublemaker!) didn’t wssc lose 15000 dollars in 2022?


As for being the change…I doubt the current board would let things change, and I doubt that there will be any changes to the board!, the “good ole boys” will continue to be elected by the “good ole boys”

Sounds like an audit is in order.

 

[Trapper Jim]

Did you see all of the things that happened leading up to this? Not saying its right but there was mud thrown from both sides. The bandwagon mentality is very strong in USPSA. Most would rather see it burn to the ground and disappear than to work on solutions to the problem. Yes ben called them out. He also was able to get Hopkins voted into the board which kind of gave him a voice on the board. But then Hopkins changed jobs and moved out of the area and failed to mention that to the board. Once they found out he got booted as it goes against the bylaws because he has to live in the area he represents.

The other sad thing is there are some people trying to run for the board to solve the issues but if they are quiet on social media and don't agree 100% with the bandwagon group, they are looked at as the same as the BOD we have. Look at the percentage of USPSA members that actually vote. Its a very small percentage. How can things change if the same people or kind of people are being voted in.

I had quit following along until recently and was like WTF happened now when all of this came out. One thing to pay attention to is the fact that the Bandwagon group has dug up peoples personal lives and is throwing that in their face when they know nothing of the actual situation. It is pretty sad really.

As a USPSA match Director, we will be renewing our affiliation and not jumping on the bandwagon. We have to be the change we want to see and I don't think unaffiliating is going to help the financial situation any.

So here’s what I’m seeing now with USPSA

It’s a non profit organization, and as such there should be total clarity with the board, and there isn’t!

They booted someone for sharing an email! As the secretary of our gun club, I expect any email to be read by any member! In fact I read the minutes of the last meeting at our club meeting! For clarity!

Our gun club is non profit, all of our board meetings are open to our members! Even our special meetings are! We had a guy very vocal and critical of the leadership, he asked to attend one of our special meetings, after the meeting he thanked us and apologized for his actions and said he understands a lot more of what goes on!

They (USPSA) tried to raise the rates overnight without any advice notice! Not by a trivial amount either! Over 60 percent! And before anybody says “they haven’t raised the rates in 20 years, and everything is more expensive now” yes I am paying more for primers and powder and bullets, but I’m getting something!…not just my name and match information on a website (and a magazine I don’t read!) fyi our club raised its rates by 10% While we were building a new building

They say we’re losing money so we have to raise membership rates, so we should be asking “have you been losing money for 20 years and you just now decided to raise membership prices? Or did the cost of operating go up 60 percent overnight?” Either way…that’s a leadership problem (but don’t question them on it!!! your membership might be revoked cause you’re a troublemaker!) didn’t wssc lose 15000 dollars in 2022?


As for being the change…I doubt the current board would let things change, and I doubt that there will be any changes to the board!, the “good ole boys” will continue to be elected by the “good ole boys”

I wish all clubs were run this responsibly.

There may be some truths to USPSA but storming the capital does not work.

Good old boys or not, USPSA provided me a fantastic source of fun since 1983. What has BS done for me? A National Champion does not make the man.

And remember, we ran the matches without wanting paid. So, is there room for improvement? What isn’t?

The improvement will come from level headed people doing level headed things.

You are lucky to have a level headed BOD in your club. Individually BOD members can be great people but sometimes collectively they can fall short.

Good luck to you

See you on the range.

Trapper

 

[JCSR]

It seems the Area 3 Director that the people voted in has been removed by the BOD for leaking e-mails 2 weeks ago. So as a non-profit org for the members why would any correspondence be hidden? These "leaked" e-mail were exposed before the Area 3 director took his place on the board.

 

[Twangbanger]

A turning point that seems to happen in shooting organizations (and others) is when they get too big for their britches and get obsessed with their "Brand" and using that to grow revenue. They think in order to grow, they need to hire full-time paid employees who report to the Board and are not directly accountable to the membership. That's ok when it's your local club hiring someone like a groundskeeper, website developer, or legal counsel, or some other routine service provider where the task can be done more efficiently and professionally by a "salaried" person. It avoids the hassle of repetitively organizing volunteer work details to get the work done ("Does anybody know how to fix a toilet"). The responsible person's "dinner dish" gets refilled weekly when they get their paycheck, and the work gets done predictably.

But when you're talking about "Headquarters" hiring a top-level executive with decisive authority over key organization processes, essentially "outsourcing" the job of the Board to a person who is "there every day" making high-consequence decisions affecting the membership experience of dues-paying members, it can be a fork in the road. On the plus side, it can bring continuity and business focus to growing revenue. On the minus side, you've created a connected insider financially motivated to perpetuate their own personal gravy train and lobby the Board to make By-law changes to make their position more permanent. That person's daily work product is often known only to the Board and is not readily visible to the membership in real-time, so there is a time-lag between decisions being made and any possible negative effect on members. This exacerbates the member sentiment of "It's already a done deal and I have no say over it."

In my experience, the Boards of shooting orgs often do a poor job of publicizing to members what the purpose of new hired positions is, except in very vague terms ("We need focused leadership" and "We need daily focus on growing the Association"). Reading about it after-the-fact in a one-page President's Column in the magazine, weeks or months after the decision has been made and the person already has their feet under a desk, and is actively "f*cking sh!t up," doesn't seem transparent to the type of member who just attends matches and doesn't follow the politics. If the Board is Machiavellian, the "outsourced talent" method also has the additional snakey appeal that it gives them a way to implement their controversial personal pet policies while outsourcing the blame onto the hired talent if the membership revolts too violently.

When you have a true volunteer Board made up mostly of "retired-but-managerially-competent" older people who have a lot of time to give, it works well for the membership, at minimum cost. If your members tend to stay engaged in the sport for a long time, you can have a long, successful run with this simple leadership model, even in orgs with tens of thousands of members like the Amateur Trapshooting Association had for decades, running a successful org and a truly massive National Championship with only a small number of hired positions whose responsibilities were fairly "bounded." The minuses are the organization isn't going to conquer the world, "Maximize / Monetize their Brand," or generate tons and tons of revenue. But it typically doesn't screw members over too badly, either, because the decision-makers are highly accountable and can either be directly voted out every year, get tired of the crap and voluntarily back out, or just die. Everybody can be replaced, and it does what needs done with a high level of efficiency, owing to the basically donated labor of highly-competent and experienced older people volunteering to do what they enjoy doing.

If your Board members all have "day jobs" which compromise their ability to put full time into running the gears of the organization, there is always going to be the potential for the "hired leadership" model to happen. It is the growing pains of a not-for-profit organization trying to grow revenue and become more like a for-profit entity. When the org has to constantly attract new members because of high turnover, and you implement hired leadership charged with running the business like a subscription service rapidly chasing new fads to maximize revenue, you've created a different animal. Again the plus side is you have continuous business management focused on growing revenue. The downside is that you have planted the seed for a range of negative outcomes, ranging from what the ATA had with the "Carson Woods Fiasco" in the late 90s/early aughts, to the much higher level of a "Wayne LaPierre Situation" with the NRA, where membership fluctuates dramatically with political conditions, and most of the org's revenue is spent on Public Relations. It is a vicious spiral. You want more revenue, so you hire professional talent to generate the "top line." Those people in turn hire outside contractors who are more adept at certain business functions. At a certain spend-level, the contractors find ways to kick-back to the executive leadership to maintain their position at the table. You've got a lot of people being paid, and if there's a significant drop in average schmucks re-upping their $40 membership, the math can become a problem real quick.

As far as USPSA goes, their "Brand" is A) Score divided by time and the ruleset that goes with it, and B) the Classification system, which provides the "benefit" of putting a letter next to a person's name to make them feel like they're not competing against everybody ("There's only 5 "B" Production shooters in the match, and I beat 3 of them, woohoo!"). A) is easily duplicated by outlaw organizations and matches. Most USPSA members stop caring about B) when one of two things happens: they realize there is no "fixed" performance standard, and it's graded on a curve which continually gets bumped upward by highly-obsessed top 2% shooters dropping hot runs into the Classifier database periodically...or the member succeeds in achieving Master by rapidly exploiting a new equipment division in its first year or so of existence when there aren't too many hot scores in the database yet - then suffers the indignity of getting their butts handed to them at "Big" matches by shooters of lower classification.

This is all to say, there isn't that much "special" about the USPSA "Brand" that people care about and can't be duplicated. If the focus on new revenue growth (Multigun, new divisions and rules, reactive / secretive leadership reacting to revenue streams they can exploit to support overhead) drives too many existing members away, USPSA can become the new "Bullseye" in town. Newbie-video-gamers coming into shooting who want to wear plate carriers and strap their pistols to their legs, but are not super-obsessed with competition and classifications, could very well end up viewing USPSA and its rules/divisions/politics the same way USPSA shooters looked at NRA Bullseye and other "Fudd" sports when they got into shooting (Distinguished Leg points system graded on a curve with no fixed performance standard, multiple side-matches requiring a different gun, competing against taxpayer-paid military teams, etc.).

All that "crap" is the value provided by the Organization. If people figure out they don't need the "crap" to enjoy themselves and get better, you got a problem.

 

[blkrifle]

a lot can be learned by reading the by-laws