US rifles not suited to warfare in Afghan hills

[thompal]

Didn't the US military a few years ago start issuing M14s to some troops as part of their "designated marksman" program?

 

[ihateiraq]

Didn't the US military a few years ago start issuing M14s to some troops as part of their "designated marksman" program?

yes. one person in each squad carried one. they even dropped them in sage ebr stocks and put leupold mk4s on them for us.

 

[j706]

I thought they were digging up every 14 they could get their hands on. That's one of the reason there has been a surge in all the new stocks and things for the M14 platform. I love the old battle rifle!

A few years ago a whole lot of police departments and high power shooting clubs got letters from the DOD wanting their M14's back. They wasn't asking either they were telling. And then of course our ex idiot of a president clinton destroyed hundreds of thousands of them, many new and unfired!!! I love those rifles. My all time favorite bar none.

 

[Colt556]

Yep, to me the classic battle rifle. I love the look and feel of steel and wood. The M14/M1a is my favorite high power rifle!

 

[SSGSAD]

If I were over there and in the "boonies" Id rather have an M14 in 308....

Yeah, me too !!!!! 147 gr. FMJ, beats 55gr., FMJ, at 500-700 yards, every time.....

 

[bman]

I know that .243 is a hunting round, but if you're going with a small cal. the .243 is way better.

 

[HollowPoint]

I've read some articles suggesting using the .243 before. Compare the energy at that distance to the others, that is if they made a .243 in 100 fmj it my have about 700 ft/lbs of energy at 500 yards. Some of the others:
5.56 in 55 grain = 340 ft/lbs
308 in 147 grain = 1072 ft/lbs
7.62 in 180 grain = 1240 ft/lbs

 

[sloughfoot]

A few years ago all of the State Rifle and Pistol Associations, including Indiana, were required to give back the match grade M14's that they were issued for Highpower Competition. These rifles were all to be used in the designated marksman role or for training in this role by the military.

It got a little sticky when it was revealed that some rifles were issued to individuals or local clubs by the State Association and nobody could quite remember who had them.

I think they were all found eventually, because I never heard of anybody getting into serious trouble over it.

I don't think you will ever see Army built match rifles issued to State Associations again.

 

[John Galt]

Isn't the 6.5 Grendel getting some attention? Excellent ballistics and great for CQB and distance, all in the same platform. I believe it has been said to actually out-perform the .308 at distance.

 

[paperboy]

I know a guy who was in Afghanistan and he seen heavy combat. He said he was in a firefight and hit an insurgent at about 200 meters with 3 rounds of 223 and the bad guy was still firing. He was finally dropped with the fourth round. The soldier went up, checked and all 4 rounds hit center mass. He was in another situation, shot a bad guy with an AK again at about 200 meters and knocked the guy completely off his feet with 1 round. He says this confirms his thoughts on the 7.62 round. By the way, this guy has been in the military for 23 years!!!!

 

[Andre46996]

I can not comment since I am not nor ever have been in any branch of the military.

Was discussing this with my father (Retired Marine) and he said and I quote....

"If we would teach all these damn kids to shoot the 5.56 is a great round, I didn't like it at first but the gun is lighter, the round is lighter and anybody worth a **** could kill you 500 yards away. It ain't a 7.62 but you ain't shooting buffalo."

He was in the first Desert Storm so I respect his opinion on the round and rifle. It's funny though because when we go to the range he prefers his M1 to any of my M4s

 

[jbhummer2]

I like the 556 but it does have it limitations. If I was in a longer range place like Afghanistan I would want a M14/M1a. Just my thoughts

 

[Claddagh]

Just MHO, but since the .243 Win. is too long to work on the standard M16 platform, one might as well go with the 7.62 NATO. Basically, the .243 is just a .308 Win. case necked-down and a difference of 47 gr. or so of weight per cartridge doesn't add up to much in the way of extra rounds per "combat load" a grunt can carry anyway.

Also FWIW, the standard Soviet issue weapon for frontline troops in Afghanistan was the AK 74 in 5.45x39. IIRC, they went to a slightly heavier 70 gr. projectile in order to squeeze a little more range and "oomph" out of it and still had many of the same issues as we're seeing with the M4, mostly due to the short barrels on both weapons. It outperformed the 7.62x39 at longer ranges, which is a large part of why they went to it in the first place.

Personally, I don't see the present Administration being any more willing (or able, now that we're well-and-truly screwed financially) to make the huge investment that it would take to either retrofit large numbers of existing M-16's for a more potent cartidge, such as the 6.8 SPC, or procure M1A's, FAL's or G3's (much less develop a 'new' combat rifle altogether) than the previous ones were.

 

[mk2ja]

Here is the link to the Army report for the Command and Staff College;

The Captain's Journal Taking Back the Infantry Half-Kilometer

Of the many interesting facts in this long diatribe, is confirmation that the M16 was to be a replacement for the M1 CARBINE, not the battle rifle.

Wow, great link. Thanks for sharing it.

I really like this particular line:

...when fire fights have to depend heavily on the art of weapon jam-clearing, something is fundamentally wrong.

 

[hodgej1843]

LOOKS LIKE IT'S TIME TO BREAK OUT THE M-14 AGAIN

 

[Airborne33]

Of course the M4 wont really do well for long range shooting. It's a carbine. It can shoot and be deadly well past 300M though, it's effective range is around 550 for a point target if I am correct. It's not intended to be used as a sniper rifle, and that is why the Army has Squad Designated Marksmen who are armed with M14 variants.

If someone can say that their M4 isn't deadly at 300m, then the problem is operator error and putting rounds into the target. Not to say that moving to a heavier bullet wouldn't help the m16 platform reach out a little futher.

 

[Lock n Load]

Uncle Sam did recall M14s that were on loan to various agencys and departments (if they were not in use or critical to their missions) but they also have purchased many from a few civilian sources..... Smith Ent. Inc. being one of the major suppliers.

Many of these from SEI are M14 sniper versions, complete with silencers and pelican cases:

Smith Enterprise, Inc.

Check out the miltary issued pics and descriptions.....

 

[Colt556]

Uncle Sam did recall M14s that were on loan to various agencys and departments (if they were not in use or critical to their missions) but they also have purchased many from a few civilian sources..... Smith Ent. Inc. being one of the major suppliers.

Many of these from SEI are M14 sniper versions, complete with silencers and pelican cases:

Smith Enterprise, Inc.

Check out the miltary issued pics and descriptions.....

After looking at that I'm going to have to go fondle my M1As!

 

[Rob377]

Back in '77, we had to "qualify" with the 5.56mm at 500 meters.

It may not be the optimal round at that distance, but you'll never convince me it's ineffective at that range either!

Marine Corps still does, at least they did in '99 when I was there.

I'll bet that extra 5.5" of barrel on the M16A2/A4 over the carbine makes a substantial difference. Still not a 7.62x51

IIRC, most 5.56 rounds out of a 14.5" barrel aren't even supersonic at 600yds. Could be wrong on that one though. Anyone have a ballistics chart comparing a 20" to a 14.5" at 600 yds?

 

[Rob377]

Then again, engaging a big static target form the 500yd line with a loop sling, dope book, and leisurely time constraints is quite a different ball of wax than engaging a small, camouflaged, moving target who is behind cover or concealment, with a simple BZO, from any number of awkward positions, who may or may not have already established fire superiority on you.