The Open Carry Argument

[2A_Tom]

And I ask, did you read the OP.

 

[Jackson]

Hadn't read it in some time. In the OP it is argued that it just doesn't happen.

"Another common criticism of open carry is that the firearm itself will be the target of theft, prompting a criminal to attack simply to get the gun from you. Like the previous example of being the first one shot in a robbery, above, this is despite the fact that there is no credible evidence it happens."

https://youtu.be/fjoF8b5XVow[video=youtube_share;fjoF8b5XVow]https://youtu.be/fjoF8b5XVow[/video]

It does happen. It may not be common but it is a risk. Needing to use the gun at all is statistically rare in the first place but you're carrying it. Why not have a plan and skills to keep it.

I'm not advocating against open carry. I'm advocating for mitigating the potential issues that go with it by using quality equipment and relevant training. That is all. Maybe it's not common to have your gun taken out of your cheap holster, but it has happened before.

Do I need to find the video of the old guy tackled in the Walmart? I bet there are other stories or articles.

 

[Jackson]

Some of you come off as offended at the opinion I've shared. If you aren't carrying like I described and/or are putting in real work on retention skills, then you're not the people I'm talking about.

If you are those people carrying in cheap holsters, worn in indefensible positions, and not putting in real work to understand the problem, your internet bravado is not a good use of your effort.

 

[protias]

I'm not planning to do anything. I'm not threatening to do anything. I didn't think anything I wrote would come off as a plan or a threat. I was just sharing a thought I have when I see some people open carrying. There are some people I see that don't spark that thought.

I apologize, when I read it the first time, I thought I read it with you saying you would/could do it.

As for CC vs OC getting targeted...

https://www.ammoland.com/2015/05/concealed-carry-failure-gun-stolen-during-robbery/

https://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/06/29/concealed-carrier-texas-got-robbed-gun-worlds-dumbest-criminal/

https://concealednation.org/2015/09/concealed-means-concealed-ccer-robbed-of-gun-in-walmart-bathroom-in-opportunistic-theft/


With that said, did you read the OP?

 

[Jackson]

I apologize, when I read it the first time, I thought I read it with you saying you would/could do it.

As for CC vs OC getting targeted...

https://www.ammoland.com/2015/05/concealed-carry-failure-gun-stolen-during-robbery/

https://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/06/29/concealed-carrier-texas-got-robbed-gun-worlds-dumbest-criminal/

https://concealednation.org/2015/09/concealed-means-concealed-ccer-robbed-of-gun-in-walmart-bathroom-in-opportunistic-theft/


With that said, did you read the OP?

It did but I didn't intend for it to be taken literally. I edited it after I realized it was. I meant only that I had the thought that it was possible. I have no intention or motivation to try.

 

[Jackson]

I read the OP. The OP states that it simply isn't a concern worth troubling yourself over. I am making the argument that it is.

 

[protias]

I read the OP. The OP states that it simply isn't a concern worth troubling yourself over. I am making the argument that it is.

Stats and figures please.

 

[Jackson]

Stats and figures please.

Another common criticism of open carry is that the firearm itself will be the target of theft, prompting a criminal to attack simply to get the gun from you. Like the previous example of being the first one shot in a robbery, above, this is despite the fact that there is no credible evidence it happens.

The OP contained no stats or figures. Only the statement that there is no evidence it happens. You posted evidence that it happens. I posted a video of it happening.

Why is the burden on me to produce some stats? Where are the stats that open carry deters criminals? Who does those studies? Those weren't posted in the OP.

Again, I'm not saying don't open carry. I'm saying be aware of what is possible and take precautions. Youd think I told everyone to throw their guns away from the reactions I get.

 

[2A_Tom]

If it was common it would be everywhere.

There are actually more recorded incidents of CC being disarmed.

 

[Jackson]

If it was common it would be everywhere.

There are actually more recorded incidents of CC being disarmed.

I am happy to make the same assertions on the CC thread. Just as applicable to them in my opinion.

 

[Vigilant]

I admire your confidence. I hope it is supported by your preparation for the task.

Its not.

 

[Vigilant]

I admire your confidence. I hope it is supported by your preparation for the task.

While we haven’t trained together that I know of, we’ve been to some of the same courses, and not knowing the quoted person, I can almost guarantee that this isn’t the case. I’ve taken ECQC twice when Craig was near, and didn’t meet a single INGO personality that would admit to it, save myself. I’ve almost got a callous on my forehead from his classes, but continue to listen to those who’ve never defended their OC’d gun or opinion outside of the keyboard?

 

[Dead Duck]

Open Carrying Reveals..... Criminals Conceal.

 

[Trapper Jim]

Some of you come off as offended at the opinion I've shared. If you aren't carrying like I described and/or are putting in real work on retention skills, then you're not the people I'm talking about.

If you are those people carrying in cheap holsters, worn in indefensible positions, and not putting in real work to understand the problem, your internet bravado is not a good use of your effort.

welcome to my world.

 

[MCgrease08]

While we haven’t trained together that I know of, we’ve been to some of the same courses, and not knowing the quoted person, I can almost guarantee that this isn’t the case. I’ve taken ECQC twice when Craig was near, and didn’t meet a single INGO personality that would admit to it, save myself. I’ve almost got a callous on my forehead from his classes, but continue to listen to those who’ve never defended their OC’d gun or opinion outside of the keyboard?

While I haven't been fortunate enough to take ECQC or train with Craig, I have taken a Managing Confrontations class built on a solid foundation of what Craig teaches. A decent chunk of that class was spent on the mat letting students get just a taste of what goes on in a ground fight and with a brief demo of some basic moves and positions. Jackson was in the class and was willing to roll with anyone that wanted to give it a go. He is one of the INGO members that I know trains in the real world.

I know everyone is a little testy and stir crazy lately, but I am seeing a ramp up in folks getting even more defensive when the topic of training comes up. I'm not sure why it seems more frequent than usual, but one should be able to discuss tactics and real world observations while having a constructive conversation.

I am a big open carry advocate and do it more than most. But I have changed the way I open carry today compared to when I started. That includes moving to an active retention holster and changing the position of where I keep the holster on my belt (2 o'clock vs. 4 o'clock). Most of these changes were due to having trained.

Pointing out that many people OC like dip ****s isn't a direct insult to anyone here unless they happen to OC like a dip ****.

 

[chipbennett]

This makes sense to me. I have a friend who has a lot of rental properties and he carry’s in the open when he visits or works on his properties. He says this is more of a deterrent to thieves blatantly taking his tools etc right in front of him. I’m not so sure, seems you just become a target to me.

It's strange. Assertions of open carrying making one a target seemingly outnumber actual occurrences of open carriers being targeted for carrying openly, by about 1,000 to 1.

 

[chipbennett]

I'm not planning to do anything. I'm not threatening to do anything. I didn't think anything I wrote would come off as a plan or a threat. I was just sharing a thought I have when I see some people open carrying. There are some people I see that don't spark that thought.

What this line of thought apparently fails to acknowledge is that how law-abiding people of sound mind think is not the same as how criminals and/or people of less-than-sound mind think.

Your points are not without merit; however, they are also not indicative of any particular risk due to the thought processes of criminals, nor of the actions of criminals derived from those thought processes.

 

[chipbennett]

Some of you come off as offended at the opinion I've shared. If you aren't carrying like I described and/or are putting in real work on retention skills, then you're not the people I'm talking about.

If you are those people carrying in cheap holsters, worn in indefensible positions, and not putting in real work to understand the problem, your internet bravado is not a good use of your effort.

I agree with your opinion regarding the wisdom of carrying in appropriate, quality holsters. (That applies whether carrying openly or concealed.)

I carry concealed, typically in an OWB holster with concealment. But that holster is Level II retention. I'm around kids a lot - my own, my girls' homeschool group, church, etc. Sometimes very young kids. I'm more worried about accidents than I am about intentional/knowing theft attempts.

I would prefer to see more people carrying in good-quality holsters. But I also believe in freedom. I fully support all law-abiding people who choose to carry, regardless of how they choose to carry. If their choices incur risks, then those people, alone, bear those risks.

 

[chipbennett]

The OP contained no stats or figures. Only the statement that there is no evidence it happens. You posted evidence that it happens. I posted a video of it happening.

Why is the burden on me to produce some stats? Where are the stats that open carry deters criminals? Who does those studies? Those weren't posted in the OP.

Again, I'm not saying don't open carry. I'm saying be aware of what is possible and take precautions. Youd think I told everyone to throw their guns away from the reactions I get.

On your first point: why produce stats? Because the plural of anecdote is not data.

On your second point: refer to John Lott's research.

 

[Jackson]

On your first point: why produce stats? Because the plural of anecdote is not data.

On your second point: refer to John Lott's research.

My point wasn't that anecdotes are data. It was that the OP did not present data. Why do I need to support my opinion moreso than the OPs opinion?

Did John Lott specifically study open carry vs concealed? Or just carrying in general? Can you point me to something more specific?