The election shenanigans thread

[Leadeye]

I think that fraud and machine go together, the more your local party/group/whatever practices machine style leadership the more likely it is that the organization will modify any election results. Part of that is what you grew up with, when I was younger I remember hearing people in chicago praising the machine because as they said "it got stuff done". OK I suppose, if you agree with the "stuff". A machine is made up of people in organizations all looking for benefits.

 

[phylodog]

I agree. Like I said. Play the social engineering game, get America First candidates elected. Fix the rules to work as intended. That's a pipe dream really.

It absolutely is unfortunately. The point at which we could have diplomatically changed this course has long since come and gone. The reality is that money runs this country now and whomever has and is willing to give the most makes the rules.

All they did last election was a **** poor attempt at covering their methods. We'll see it again this time but a little better concealed but we won't have to worry about it too much longer. They'll eventually just stop putting forth the effort and just let us know that AI has successfully predicted the outcome of the election so no need to bother voting.

 

[Ingomike]

Attitudes like mine? You mean wanting to support beliefs with evidence? The conservative media industrial complex is just as healthy, though not as well funded, as the progressive media industrial complex. Clickbait pays on the right as well as it does on the left. Lots of "news" outlets on the right fill your heads full of ****, because it pays, and not because the things they report are all true.

Did D's cheat? Probably. How did they cheat? Well, we know that they changed election rules in key states to exploit more dubious mail-in ballot processes. They did things like extend deadlines. They made it a season of voting rather than just vote on one day. There is plenty of evidence to believe that. Did they cheat on mass scale? I think it feels likely that they did. And that's how they could do it and get away with it because it's hard to prove on a mass scale.

Do we have such proof? Not really, other than specific cases that are being prosecuted. Because they did it in one case does indeed mean that they could do it in other cases, even at a mass scale. But that they could do it is not proof that they did do it. That they won is not proof that they cheated, either. It would be circular reasoning to claim it.

Rather than pissing and moaning about Kraken, I think it would be more productive to focus on working within the system we have to ensure fairness, or start doing what they're doing. R's need to step up their social engineering game to compete. Sucks that it can't just be fair, open, honest. It's how the game is being played though.

100%, attitudes like yours are a problem. Know it all thinking coupled with unreasonable demands of proof. This is civil when against the state so civil standards of evidence apply, criminal evidentiary standards only apply to those charged with crimes.

Georgia state election board just found 17,000 fraudulent ballots and admitted that over 300,000 ballot scans are missing but would not order additional investigation of the missing ballot scans. There have been dozens and dozens of these types of findings in court cases and official investigations over the past three years but you are still singing the same song and dance.

The evidence is there you just need to open your closed mind…

 

[Ingomike]

They Must Be Spooked: WI Supreme Court to Revisit Limited Drop Box Ruling

hotair.com

 

[Ingomike]

Renowned Attorney John Eastman Delivers Blistering Speech on Illegitimate 2020 President Election - John Describes Complete Breakdown of the Election Process Like No Other (FULL VIDEO) | The Gateway Pundit | by Jim Hoft

Brilliant scholar and former Trump attorney John Eastman, traveled to Michigan on Friday night.

www.thegatewaypundit.com

 

[Ingomike]

Biden’s Using Your Tax Dollars To Turn Out Democrat Votes

The Biden administration's executive order has the potential to swing the 2024 election in the president’s favor.

thefederalist.com

 

[BugI02]

Attitudes like mine? You mean wanting to support beliefs with evidence? The conservative media industrial complex is just as healthy, though not as well funded, as the progressive media industrial complex. Clickbait pays on the right as well as it does on the left. Lots of "news" outlets on the right fill your heads full of ****, because it pays, and not because the things they report are all true.

If you cannot accept the evidence created by statistical anomaly, then I guess you just shouldn't believe in electrons until you can actually see a picture of one

Stop using electricity now, there's no evidence (by your lights) it actually exists

And if you decide to say electricity is evidenced by its effects upon the world, why would the election of Biden be any different as evidence of voting fraud?

Oy

 

[BugI02]

Speaking of washing aid money, I wonder how well Speaker Johnson's debt problems are resolving of late.

I was thinking more along the lines of 'I wonder if there's a Mike Johnson on the Epstein client list'

 

[jamil]

100%, attitudes like yours are a problem. Know it all thinking coupled with unreasonable demands of proof. This is civil when against the state so civil standards of evidence apply, criminal evidentiary standards only apply to those charged with crimes.

Georgia state election board just found 17,000 fraudulent ballots and admitted that over 300,000 ballot scans are missing but would not order additional investigation of the missing ballot scans. There have been dozens and dozens of these types of findings in court cases and official investigations over the past three years but you are still singing the same song and dance.

The evidence is there you just need to open your closed mind…

Unreasonable standards? Seems like any standard is unreasonable if it questions something you’d like to believe.

Upthread I said in response to an article, that missing ballots is at least evidence. But you think an article from known liars, telling some wild ass tale that a raid happened in Germany, when nothing else corroborates it other than the word of a general, who has reasons to lie. You exercised zero skepticism.



You’re quite eager to believe even the wildest of claims without corroboration just because your team said it, as if they wouldn’t clickbait you into believing a tall tale. I don’t think I’m the know-it-all here. I’m not asking for beyond reasonable doubt standards here. But I am advocating that we at least apply standards at all to what we’re willing to believe.

You hear about kraken? You say, cool story bro. Tell me more when you have something convincing. But then you need to be convinced with real facts rather than only knowing which side is saying it.

 

[jamil]

They Must Be Spooked: WI Supreme Court to Revisit Limited Drop Box Ruling

hotair.com

Former President Donald Trump has falsely claimed that the widespread use of ballot drop boxes in 2020 led to voter fraud.

But there’s actually evidence of people stuffing drop boxes in the wee hours of the morning. Video evidence used in court to convict the stuffer. So not a false claim.

 

[Ingomike]

Unreasonable standards? Seems like any standard is unreasonable if it questions something you’d like to believe.

I stated the actual evidentiary standards, not what was made up in your mind.

Upthread I said in response to an article, that missing ballots is at least evidence. But you think an article from known liars, telling some wild ass tale that a raid happened in Germany, when nothing else corroborates it other than the word of a general, who has reasons to lie. You exercised zero skepticism.

I have stated all along that I do not know if this occurred but it sure seem plausible since we know that the government possesses the tools to perpetuate it and clearly had the will based on what has been proven to have happened. What are the reasons the generals that called it out had to lie?

You’re quite eager to believe even the wildest of claims without corroboration just because your team said it, as if they wouldn’t clickbait you into believing a tall tale. I don’t think I’m the know-it-all here. I’m not asking for beyond reasonable doubt standards here. But I am advocating that we at least apply standards at all to what we’re willing to believe.

You hear about kraken? You say, cool story bro. Tell me more when you have something convincing. But then you need to be convinced with real facts rather than only knowing which side is saying it.

You can no more prove it didn’t happen than I can it did, but only fools and partisans say it couldn’t have happened…

 

[jamil]

If you cannot accept the evidence created by statistical anomaly, then I guess you just shouldn't believe in electrons until you can actually see a picture of one

Stop using electricity now, there's no evidence (by your lights) it actually exists

And if you decide to say electricity is evidenced by its effects upon the world, why would the election of Biden be any different as evidence of voting fraud?

Oy

Surely you could find a better straw analogy of what I haven’t said than that. What I believe about electricity isn’t based on voting statistics in a disputed political election. It’s based on empirical evidence discovered by others and formulated into laws and theories, and from formal education and working in electronics for 18 years back in my first career.

I’m not opposed to using statistics to suggest that something was amiss, or as clues to where it went amiss for further investigation. I believe there was cheating. Did whatever cheating there was, did it amount to election altering results? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Maybe.

But ballot harvesting explains the scale much better than Kraken does. I think it’s better to focus on 2024. Secret raids isn’t how they’re going to do it. My suspicion is ballot harvesting plus illegals voting. Focusing on that, I think is more productive.

 

[Ingomike]

But ballot harvesting explains the scale much better than Kraken does.

 

[jamil]

I stated the actual evidentiary standards, not what was made up in your mind.

What you said has nothing to do with me, other than some nonsense about claiming I need absolute proof beyond a shadow of a doubt. Belief doesn't use legal standards of proof. People usually believes things based on intuition. Some people have temperaments that require more than intuition. Make a convincing case backed by some decently sourced facts and I can be convinced. That's what happened with COVID. But if you just go by intuition, especially fueled by an uber sense of "team", and you'll only be correct for the same reasons a broken clock is right twice a day.

I have stated all along that I do not know if this occurred but it sure seem plausible since we know that the government possesses the tools to perpetuate it and clearly had the will based on what has been proven to have happened.

Oh, now c'mon. You were hooked on that story from the beginning. We've gone around and around on it many times since. It seems like goalposts have moved to merely "plausible".

What are the reasons the generals that called it out had to lie?

Should I use my standards of evidence or yours? Loyalty to Trump? That is a reason to lie. It's not a claim that he did lie. I mean everyone has a reason to lie when the thing they're claiming is beneficial. When it's not, for example, polls that show 25-30% of voters cheated. There's nothing to gain by lying about that. So that poll is probably trustworthy if its methodology is sound.

You can no more prove it didn’t happen than I can it did, but only fools and partisans say it couldn’t have happened…

Mike. You should know better. Claiming that I have to prove a negative is obviously not an argument worth pursuing here. Proving a negative is only possible when the universe of discourse is known. I can prove the negative that the number 18 is not in the set of negative numbers.

I can't prove that this raid never happened. But I also can't prove that Nancy Pelosi is not demon possessed. You can't prove the positive, or even make a reasonable case that it was more likely to have happened than not. It's an unfalsifiable claim. We needn't waste our time with it. But you did, because it was just too savory not to believe, having just come off of the guy you believe in not winning.

 

[jamil]

View attachment 352637

I'd say one is ********. The other is rife with verifiable evidence. We saw the rule changes in these states and we saw them push mail-in-voting. We read the Time article admitting to the "cabal" of people working behind the scenes to stop DJT, even with Zuckerbucks.

That's a ****ton of evidence of widespread ballot harvesting. Plus, the expose that O'Keefe did on it. Plus--I almost forgot--I doubt you are at all skeptical of 2000 mules documentary, which alleges that these .orgs paid people (mules, although "donkeys" would have been metaphorically more apt) to collect illegal ballots and deposit them in drop boxes.

If you need to believe Trump was cheated, you could believe that was sufficient to do it. It's a reasonable belief. No need to trust clickbait.

 

[phylodog]

I think it’s better to focus on 2024. Focusing on that, I think is more productive.

Great plan which I'm sure will lead to positive change like it has previously.

I don't have 100% proof that the election was stolen. I also didn't have 100% proof that the jabs were ******** but I had enough to forfeit the best job I've ever had over it, and I was right as ****ing rain. Took a lot of heat over the plandemic and I've taken a lot of heat about the election but what I've not done is fallen for what was later proven to be a conspiracy theory.

Joe Biden was absolutely not legitimately elected in the 2020 election, there is a zero % chance that he was. There were a myriad of efforts across many levels from the "faulty" voting machines down to scumbags covering up windows to conceal their "counting" to the pathetic little vermin stuffing boxes in the middle of the night and the pathetic clowns filling out ballots for those who cannot. Will there ever be enough evidence for anything other than individual little slaps on the wrist? We all know the answer.

There could be 80 million individual convictions for voter fraud in the 2020 election and that is all that would ever come of it. There would be no acknowledgement that Biden should have never been sworn in, no meaningful attempts to prevent it from happening again.

So what then, just go at 2024 in the same way? We all know, just as we did in 2020 that Biden doesn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of garnering 25% of legitimate votes but we'll all sit back on election night and watch the miraculous ******** happen again. The following day we'll be right back to where we are and have been.

The truly unfortunate thing is that none of this matters. It is what it is, this is how it will be going forward and in reality 2020 was probably the most legitimate federal election I'll see in my lifetime. Short of changes so significant to our government that we would need to change the name of the country, this is the new norm.

 

[jamil]

Great plan which I'm sure will lead to positive change like it has previously.

Oh. I have no confidence that Trump will win. The "cabal," as Time Magazine aptly named them don't want Trump winning in 2024 any more than they wanted him to win in 2020.

I don't have 100% proof that the election was stolen. I also didn't have 100% proof that the jabs were ******** but I had enough to forfeit the best job I've ever had over it, and I was right as ****ing rain. Took a lot of heat over the plandemic and I've taken a lot of heat about the election but what I've not done is fallen for what was later proven to be a conspiracy theory.

No one is saying it requires 100% proof. By the time that Biden's mandate was starting to be enforced, there was plenty of evidence about the shot. People had legitimate reasons to refuse it.

The point about reasons to believe, isn't about the things we do have evidence for. I'm talking about believing wild ass claims about late night secret raids in Germany, promises of "Kraken" that never came about. Why waste time whining about stuff with no legitimate reason to believe it, other than you want it to be true, when there is plenty of evidence for the far more believable exploits? But that's just not as delicious.

Joe Biden was absolutely not legitimately elected in the 2020 election, there is a zero % chance that he was. There were a myriad of efforts across many levels from the "faulty" voting machines down to scumbags covering up windows to conceal their "counting" to the pathetic little vermin stuffing boxes in the middle of the night and the pathetic clowns filling out ballots for those who cannot. Will there ever be enough evidence for anything other than individual little slaps on the wrist? We all know the answer.

There could be 80 million individual convictions for voter fraud in the 2020 election and that is all that would ever come of it. There would be no acknowledgement that Biden should have never been sworn in, no meaningful attempts to prevent it from happening again.

2020 is done. 2024 is in front of us. I said up-thread and again here that I don't think 2024 will be successful for the country.

So what then, just go at 2024 in the same way? We all know, just as we did in 2020 that Biden doesn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of garnering 25% of legitimate votes but we'll all sit back on election night and watch the miraculous ******** happen again. The following day we'll be right back to where we are and have been.

Well, that's an exaggeration. Polls are way tighter than 25%. People like my in-laws are a dime-a-dozen. Still, Trump should win given the polls in the swing states.

You're not wrong, though, that the following day, we'll be right back where we are now. I'm black-pilled AF about this ****. And I'll admit that feeling is mostly intuition. It's not a prediction as much as it is a sentiment.

The truly unfortunate thing is that none of this matters. It is what it is, this is how it will be going forward and in reality 2020 was probably the most legitimate federal election I'll see in my lifetime. Short of changes so significant to our government that we would need to change the name of the country, this is the new norm.

As little hope as I have that Biden will lose, I still think the game needs to play out. I think mail-in ballots will play a large role. I also think that Democrats haven't let 7.5M illegals in the country just for giggles. I suspect illegals will play a roll in the election, too.

 

[phylodog]

The point about reasons to believe, isn't about the things we do have evidence for. I'm talking about believing wild ass claims about late night secret raids in Germany, promises of "Kraken" that never came about. Why waste time whining about stuff with no legitimate reason to believe it, other than you want it to be true, when there is plenty of evidence for the far more believable exploits? But that's just not as delicious.

My position is that there was plenty of evidence to warrant a wide scale, multi agency, multi jurisdictional investigation and to put everything at least on hold to some extent, until it was concluded. I don't need any of the wild stories to feel the way I do and I've disregarded them. I've seen videos of ballot box stuffing, heard testimony about people filling out ballots for elderly and infirm who couldn't do it for themselves, I've seen the minor convictions for a variety of voting related crimes around the country pretty much ignored, I watched the vote counters cover the windows concealing their activities, I watched the video of suitcases full of ballots being magically produced from dark places and I watched as Biden was suddenly and magnificently handed millions of votes on live television.

That is enough, that is more than sufficient to warrant an investigation the likes of which this country has never seen with so many layers of oversight that it could not possibly be covered up. We didn't get that, what we got were ******** excuses and 450 different claims of "isolated incidents". Combine all of that with one of the few things I pride myself on which is a finely tuned ******** meter honed over a couple of decades of police service and I will never be convinced that 2020 was a legitimate election. It was not, Biden did not win the popular vote and certainly did not receive 80+ million votes. Didn't happen.

The only thing that really irritates me is trying to view every example of fraud in a vacuum. Few seem willing to look at the big picture and instead dismiss thousands of instances as ineffectual and therefor not worthy of consideration further.

 

[jamil]

My position is that there was plenty of evidence to warrant a wide scale, multi agency, multi jurisdictional investigation and to put everything at least on hold to some extent, until it was concluded. I don't need any of the wild stories to feel the way I do and I've disregarded them. I've seen videos of ballot box stuffing, heard testimony about people filling out ballots for elderly and infirm who couldn't do it for themselves, I've seen the minor convictions for a variety of voting related crimes around the country pretty much ignored, I watched the vote counters cover the windows concealing their activities, I watched the video of suitcases full of ballots being magically produced from dark places and I watched as Biden was suddenly and magnificently handed millions of votes on live television.

That is enough, that is more than sufficient to warrant an investigation the likes of which this country has never seen with so many layers of oversight that it could not possibly be covered up. We didn't get that, what we got were ******** excuses and 450 different claims of "isolated incidents". Combine all of that with one of the few things I pride myself on which is a finely tuned ******** meter honed over a couple of decades of police service and I will never be convinced that 2020 was a legitimate election. It was not, Biden did not win the popular vote and certainly did not receive 80+ million votes. Didn't happen.

The only thing that really irritates me is trying to view every example of fraud in a vacuum. Few seem willing to look at the big picture and instead dismiss thousands of instances as ineffectual and therefor not worthy of consideration further.

The instances you mentioned should have been investigated. After Time magazine admitted that the “Cabal” interfered in the election, there should have been a criminal investigation opened, charges filed, and people going to jail.

Instead America cheered the brave souls who intervened to save America from literally Hitler.

 

[BugI02]

Upthread I said in response to an article, that missing ballots is at least evidence. But you think an article from known liars, telling some wild ass tale that a raid happened in Germany, when nothing else corroborates it other than the word of a general, who has reasons to lie. You exercised zero skepticism.

And, as with evidence of election irregularities, you pick the most extreme examples - kraken and German raid - to harp on, seemingly in order to discredit
all evidence you, yourself, do not anoint

Your oft quoted dictum that we should be skeptical of information provided by people who have a reason to lie to us INCLUDES people like yourself who feel they are doing OK and have a vested interest in not rocking their own personal kayak

At the time of the purported German raid, I ventured a possible explanation other than the usual 'Trump is a gullible moron' trope; to whit that it might have been a ploy to convince people holding evidence that it might be happening so that they would perhaps move incautiously and be vulnerable to exposure and capture of the information. It could easily seem so byzantine because Trump really had no good idea of who might be on his side beyond a close circle of friends. I am intrigued that, despite all manner of punters coming forth to give their side of various perceived Trump foibles, even some that the UCMJ or classification rules should preclude, we have never seen an 'expose' of even a purported reason for the 'German raid'

A true skeptic would be open to curiosity about the anomalies of any given subject and dismiss nothing out of hand. You dismissed election fraud until you couldn't, will you go down the same rabbit hole with every other irregularity in how Trump was treated and betrayed?