Speeding ticket question for the INGO experts

[ghuns]

First, a pop quiz. What is the speed limit on an unmarked county road in the state of Indiana?

Now the novel...

I am recounting this story 2nd hand. My wife, son and Officer Friendly were the ones actually there so take it for what it's worth...

We live in rural southern St Joe County. There had recently been a county police car patrolling our road, which is highly unusual, but not unwelcomed.

The wife and the boy were heading down to Ball State for orientation on 6/29. The wife made the boy drive so he could get feel for the trip. We live on a recently repaved stretch of county road that hasn't ever had a speed limit sign. It's about 6 miles to the first stop sign, and being my son, the kid gets to up to speed and sets the cruise control.

Two miles from home, there is a county police car sitting at a crossroad. The kid sees him, checks his speed, decides he is OK, and goes past. Officer Friendly pulls out and lights him up. Kid is freaked out, never been pulled over before. Wife says chill out, pull over and remember to be polite and respectful.

Officer Friendly walks up and politely asks for license and registration which the kid has in hand. Somewhat less politely, asks if he knows how fast he was going. Kid says yes sir, 60MPH. Officer Friendly now a little snarky, informs him he was actually going 62MPH. He then asks, well do you know what the speed limit is? Kid says yes sir, 55MPH. Bordering on hostile, Officer Friendly informs him that the speed limit is 40MPH! Informs him that is only 3MPH from reckless driving at which point a he would have torn a hole in space-time and the world would have slipped into a wormhole dooming all of mankind, or something like that. The kid is visibly shaken at this point. He tells the officer, it's an unposted county road, the speed limit is 55MPH. Officer Friendly returns to his vehicle. Wife gives the kid another chill out, be polite and respectful peptalk. Office Friendly returns and presents him with a ticket for 62 in a 40. Tells him if he has any questions call the number at the bottom of the ticket. Kid attempts to plead his case again, Officer Friendly gives him a little "talk to the hand" and tells him again, any questions, call the number at the bottom of the ticket and have a nice day.

The wife calls me and tells me the story. I tell her to take over driving cause the kid is all worked up. Have the kid call the county police traffic division and ask for the shift supervisor. I call the Bremen State police post and ask the trooper who answered the phone, what the speed limit is on my road. He immediately answers 55MPH. He then said, let me have your phone number and I will double check and call you back. He called back 5 minutes later and verified the speed limit is 55.

In the meantime, the kid left a voicemail for the shift supervisor and the wife called a friend who is a South Bend PD officer and told her the story. She says, yeah, SBPD is a she, I know Officer Friendly. Let me call the county officer who knows all things traffic related and verify the speed limit, then call Officer Friendly and straighten this out. She, verifies speed limit, calls him, he says my wife and kid were arseholes to him and even if he was wrong about the speed limit, no way is he throwing the ticket out.

Now the wife is pi$$ed. The kid may have been indignant bordering on being an arse, he is 19, and my son, but I doubt seriously my wife's attitude rose to arsehole status. That is usually reserved for me.

The shift super called the kid back promptly. Turns out he knows my kid. The kid was dating another cop's daughter on and off since middle school and they met at various cop related family type outings. He thinks the kid is calling because he's in trouble with the girl's dad. Kid says it's not that serious, just a ticket. He asks for Officer Friendly's name, when the kid tells him, he does an audible, over the phone eye roll and asks, how were you treated by Officer Friendly? Kid, with wife pinching him hard in the rib area hard, recounts his story of woe in a polite, dispassionate manner. Supervisor says he will talk to Officer Friendly when he returns and suggest he toss the ticket. Stresses that he can't make him, but people usually take his suggestions. He says wait a week, and call the number on the ticket to see if it was put into the system.

7/6, Kid calls, no ticket in the system. He breaks into happy dance. I tell him call back on 7/13 to be sure. 7/13, still no ticket. I tell him, call 7/20 to be extra-super sure. Calls 7/20, guess what, he got a ticket and has an 8/3 court date.

So, I see his options as follows:

Go to court, and ticket gets reduced to 62 in a 55. Much better, but not great. They will probably offer him the diversion deal where we pay an obscene amount of money and in a year, barring another violation, it's like it never happened.

Or, pay one of the lawyers who have sent him letters in the last week to try to get it thrown out altogether.

I would honestly rather pay a lawyer than give the county a dime, but not sure what kind of success rate they really have in traffic court.

Or maybe call the prosecutor's office directly and see if they will just toss it instead of wasting time in court?

 

[T.Lex]

I prosecuted traffic tickets in Hamilton County for about 7 years (stopped about 4 years ago).

My recommendation is to call the prosecutor, explain the situation and do the deferral/diversion, a variation of this idea.

Go to court, and ticket gets reduced to 62 in a 55. Much better, but not great. They will probably offer him the diversion deal where we pay an obscene amount of money and in a year, barring another violation, it's like it never happened.

This:

Or, pay one of the lawyers who have sent him letters in the last week to try to get it thrown out altogether.

Is unlikely to happen. When I say "unlikely" I mean a less than 1% chance.

At trial, they can amend to 62/55, but the points would go on the record. I think that's 2 points.

Or maybe call the prosecutor's office directly and see if they will just toss it instead of wasting time in court?

They won't toss it, but you can probably get the deferral.

I mean, I'm not discouraging you from asking to have it tossed. Explain the whole thing. In fact, don't be shy about how you talked to other LEOs (leave their names out) about the law and you know you're right about it.

Oh, and you'll want Indiana Code 9-21-5-2 handy.

 

[Bigtanker]

 

[spec4]

IANAL but it seems if you admit to 62 in a 55 you have convicted yourself.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Was the speeding ticket written under state code or under a local ordinance?

State code would be 55 mph. I know local ordinances can modify the speed limit under certain conditions, but have no idea if they can modify the default speed limits without putting up signs. I would suspect no, but can't say for sure.

IC 9-21-5-2
Maximum speed limits
Sec. 2. Except when a special hazard exists that requires lower
speed for compliance with section 1 of this chapter, the slower speed
limit specified in this section or established as authorized by section
3 of this chapter is the maximum lawful speed. A person may not
drive a vehicle on a highway at a speed in excess of the following
maximum limits:
(1) Thirty (30) miles per hour in an urban district.
(2) Fifty-five (55) miles per hour, except as provided in
subdivisions (1), (3), (4), (5), (6), and (7).
(3) Seventy (70) miles per hour on a highway on the national
system of interstate and defense highways located outside of an
urbanized area (as defined in 23 U.S.C. 101) with a population
of at least fifty thousand (50,000), except as provided in
subdivision (4).
(4) Sixty-five (65) miles per hour for a vehicle (other than a bus)
having a declared gross weight greater than twenty-six thousand
(26,000) pounds on a highway on the national system of
interstate and defense highways located outside an urbanized
area (as defined in 23 U.S.C. 101) with a population of at least
fifty thousand (50,000).
(5) Sixty-five (65) miles per hour on:
(A) U.S. 20 from the intersection of U.S. 20 and County
Road 17 in Elkhart County to the intersection of U.S. 20 and
U.S. 31 in St. Joseph County;
(B) U.S. 31 from the intersection of U.S. 31 and U.S. 20 in
St. Joseph County to the boundary line between Indiana and
Michigan; and
(C) a highway classified by the Indiana department of
transportation as an INDOT Freeway.
(6) On a highway that is the responsibility of the Indiana finance
authority established by IC 4-4-11:
(A) seventy (70) miles per hour for:
(i) a motor vehicle having a declared gross weight of not
more than twenty-six thousand (26,000) pounds; or
(ii) a bus; or
(B) sixty-five (65) miles per hour for a motor vehicle having
a declared gross weight greater than twenty-six thousand
(26,000) pounds.
(7) Sixty (60) miles per hour on a highway that:
(A) is not designated as a part of the national system of
interstate and defense highways;
(B) has four (4) or more lanes;
(C) is divided into two (2) or more roadways by:
(i) an intervening space that is unimproved and not
intended for vehicular travel;
(ii) a physical barrier; or
(iii) a dividing section constructed to impede vehicular
traffic; and
(D) is located outside an urbanized area (as defined in 23
U.S.C. 101) with a population of at least fifty thousand
(50,000).
(8) Fifteen (15) miles per hour in an alley.
As added by P.L.2-1991, SEC.9. Amended by P.L.92-1991, SEC.2;
P.L.1-1993, SEC.56; P.L.151-2005, SEC.2; P.L.1-2006, SEC.163.
IC 9-21-5-3
Alteration of maximum speed limits; authorities; procedures
Sec. 3. The maximum speed limits set forth in section 2 of this
chapter may be altered as follows:
(1) By local jurisdictions under section 6 of this chapter.
(2) By the Indiana department of transportation under section 12
of this chapter.
(3) For the purposes of speed limits on a highway on the
national system of interstate and defense highways, by order of
the commissioner of the Indiana department of transportation to
conform to any federal regulation concerning state speed limit
laws.
(4) In worksites, by all jurisdictions under section 11 of this
chapter.
As added by P.L.2-1991, SEC.9. Amended by P.L.235-2005,
SEC.124; P.L.151-2005, SEC.3; P.L.1-2006, SEC.164.
IC 9-21-5-4

 

[Htrailblazer]

I would constest the validity of the ticket, i have seen them get tossed because the color of the car was written down as grey instead of silver. I would contest that ticket isnt valid based upon the officer not even knowing the speed limit of the road. Also make him prove that the speed was 62 and not 55.

 

[eldirector]

I'd have to check, but I believe the limit on non-posted county roads is 40 MPH.

 

[red_zr24x4]

Southern St Joe here, most county roads by me are posted at 40- 45 mph.
The shape of most county roads I wouldn't drive over 50 on them.

 

[SteveM4A1]

Honestly, the deferral isn't too much money, especially when you take into account how much his insurance is going to increase at renewal because of it. Some companies will still be rating that ticket against him 5 years from now. So the deferral is big savings.

 

[eldirector]

I stand corrected:
http://www.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/Indiana/stjosephco_in/stjosephcountyindianacodeofordinances?f=templates$fn=default.htm$3.0$vid=amlegal:stjosephco_in

(K) Unless otherwise designated, speed limits shall be as follows: (1) Thirty mph in any urban district; and

(2) Fifty-five mph in any non-urban district.

 

[T.Lex]

Not sure where the 40 mph is coming from, unless it really is marked as that.

From the St. Joe County code:
http://www.amlegal.com/library/in/stjosephco.shtml

Section 70.21

(K) Unless otherwise designated, speed limits shall be as follows: (1) Thirty mph in any urban district; and

(2) Fifty-five mph in any non-urban district.

 

[Informed Decision]

I suggest doing the deferral. I personally thought county roads were 40 mph unless posted higher. You can plead that you thought it was 55 & judge might lower down being it's his first offense. Don't see any way to fight it myself. Your son WAS speeding & over the amount that I believe most cops would pull over for. Deferral seems the best option to me.

 

[steveh_131]

Informs him that is only 3MPH from reckless driving at which point a he would have torn a hole in space-time and the world would have slipped into a wormhole dooming all of mankind, or something like that.

I really enjoyed this part right here.

 

[ghuns]

Was the speeding ticket written under state code or under a local ordinance?

The state trooper I talked to said a local ordinance could be in place, but he didn't think so. I messaged the St Joe County police on their facebook page and asked specifically about the road in question. The extremely polite and helpful officer who is in charge of that page looked into it for me and said he could find no local ordinance for that stretch of road and...

I think you'd be safe following state law for the road type. But I'm not dispensing legal advice

I really liked the smiley face.

The shape of most county roads I wouldn't drive over 50 on them.

We got us some of that sweet Toll Road sale $$$ over here on the east side.

 

[Thegeek]

What road? What direction of travel (NSEW?) and where did you get onto that road from?

 

[1DOWN4UP]

I may be wrong,Last year,me and one of the SJC engineers had this very conversation. He told me,45mph if not posted,and the posted sign has to be up within 200 ft of the intersection.He had the code book on him. Now I could see 55mph on say Crumstown Hwy,(because it once was a st highway)mabye Miami rd. Was the cop say Lawson? what road/what block?

 

[ghuns]

What road? What direction of travel (NSEW?) and where did you get onto that road from?

That info would narrow down my address to a level that I am uncomfortable disclosing on the interwebz.

 

[ghuns]

I may be wrong,Last year,me and one of the SJC engineers had this very conversation. He told me,45mph if not posted,and the posted sign has to be up within 200 ft of the intersection.He had the code book on him.

I don't know what book he had, but please see..

Was the speeding ticket written under state code or under a local ordinance?

State code would be 55 mph. I know local ordinances can modify the speed limit under certain conditions, but have no idea if they can modify the default speed limits without putting up signs. I would suspect no, but can't say for sure.

IC 9-21-5-2
Maximum speed limits
Sec. 2. Except when a special hazard exists that requires lower
speed for compliance with section 1 of this chapter, the slower speed
limit specified in this section or established as authorized by section
3 of this chapter is the maximum lawful speed. A person may not
drive a vehicle on a highway at a speed in excess of the following
maximum limits:
(1) Thirty (30) miles per hour in an urban district.
(2) Fifty-five (55) miles per hour, except as provided in
subdivisions (1), (3), (4), (5), (6), and (7).
(3) Seventy (70) miles per hour on a highway on the national
system of interstate and defense highways located outside of an
urbanized area (as defined in 23 U.S.C. 101) with a population
of at least fifty thousand (50,000), except as provided in
subdivision (4).
(4) Sixty-five (65) miles per hour for a vehicle (other than a bus)
having a declared gross weight greater than twenty-six thousand
(26,000) pounds on a highway on the national system of
interstate and defense highways located outside an urbanized
area (as defined in 23 U.S.C. 101) with a population of at least
fifty thousand (50,000).
(5) Sixty-five (65) miles per hour on:
(A) U.S. 20 from the intersection of U.S. 20 and County
Road 17 in Elkhart County to the intersection of U.S. 20 and
U.S. 31 in St. Joseph County;
(B) U.S. 31 from the intersection of U.S. 31 and U.S. 20 in
St. Joseph County to the boundary line between Indiana and
Michigan; and
(C) a highway classified by the Indiana department of
transportation as an INDOT Freeway.
(6) On a highway that is the responsibility of the Indiana finance
authority established by IC 4-4-11:
(A) seventy (70) miles per hour for:
(i) a motor vehicle having a declared gross weight of not
more than twenty-six thousand (26,000) pounds; or
(ii) a bus; or
(B) sixty-five (65) miles per hour for a motor vehicle having
a declared gross weight greater than twenty-six thousand
(26,000) pounds.
(7) Sixty (60) miles per hour on a highway that:
(A) is not designated as a part of the national system of
interstate and defense highways;
(B) has four (4) or more lanes;
(C) is divided into two (2) or more roadways by:
(i) an intervening space that is unimproved and not
intended for vehicular travel;
(ii) a physical barrier; or
(iii) a dividing section constructed to impede vehicular
traffic; and
(D) is located outside an urbanized area (as defined in 23
U.S.C. 101) with a population of at least fifty thousand
(50,000).
(8) Fifteen (15) miles per hour in an alley.
As added by P.L.2-1991, SEC.9. Amended by P.L.92-1991, SEC.2;
P.L.1-1993, SEC.56; P.L.151-2005, SEC.2; P.L.1-2006, SEC.163.
IC 9-21-5-3
Alteration of maximum speed limits; authorities; procedures
Sec. 3. The maximum speed limits set forth in section 2 of this
chapter may be altered as follows:
(1) By local jurisdictions under section 6 of this chapter.
(2) By the Indiana department of transportation under section 12
of this chapter.
(3) For the purposes of speed limits on a highway on the
national system of interstate and defense highways, by order of
the commissioner of the Indiana department of transportation to
conform to any federal regulation concerning state speed limit
laws.
(4) In worksites, by all jurisdictions under section 11 of this
chapter.
As added by P.L.2-1991, SEC.9. Amended by P.L.235-2005,
SEC.124; P.L.151-2005, SEC.3; P.L.1-2006, SEC.164.
IC 9-21-5-4

I was shocked when my kids went through driver's ed to learn that it was now 55MPH. The state trooper I talked to thought it was 45 when he came on years ago.

 

[Fantix]

The question no one has asked: Does your son still have his wallet?

 

[ghuns]

The question no one has asked: Does your son still have his wallet?

Wow, not bad for a sub 50 poster. Not bad at all.